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Old 10-09-2014, 17:32   #91
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Given your extensive cruising experience as a couple (you with your wife), and your time on his power boat, I am curious what you think of his boats.
The power boat is very very impressive . . . but for me, ultimately boring . . . you point it where you want to go, click on the autopilot, put on a dvd, have some ice cream, and wait until you get there.

I thought (and Linda also thought, but Steve did not) the sailboats were too big and powerful for two. Steve is just a super sailor, better than I. They had a "9kt rule" (speed drops below 9 kts and the engine goes on) and they drove their sail boats hard.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Surely by now you realize that in hard weather and in open sea, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to handle. Evans is right -- the real challenge is keeping up with the maintenance, the volume of which goes up exponentially with length. Not handling. Or even docking, I daresay.
.
I have "single handed" a 110'er - from NZ to fiji (owner couple on boat but did not help very much). All hydraulic furling and winches - watch the gribs and radar and furl ahead of time if you can (and usually you can). Furl all the sails and turn the motor on if there is any risk of things getting dicy (squalls). It was all pretty easy . . . .so long as the hydraulics worked . . . you were screwed if the hydraulics broke.

Docking was with big bow thrusters and a throwing line (or dinghy) to get one (the first) line ashore then you were all set, just winch the boat in using the thruster to keep it level.

We have a friend with an oyster 72, and I personally think that's the smallest size to have space for a full time pro crew; even an engineer - who are harder to hire than you might expect, rather than a captain.
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Old 10-09-2014, 21:08   #92
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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One more.
Pic of FPB 64

It was in Port Sidney a few weeks back and had a good look at it, I really want one of these.
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Old 11-09-2014, 00:19   #93
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Dreams are free

As to permanent crew -- if you have permanent crew in your land house, I don't see why they would bother you on your boat. I would not, personally, want to cross oceans with just two people on board. Exhausting. Three or four friends and a professional or two is ideal, in my opinion.
I have had live-in help for 30 years. You certianly get used to it once you get past your "privacy" paradigms. Yeah, my housekeeper ocassoinally sees me in my underpants - It does her more harm than me - LOL... But in a way she is like a doctor. She gets to see the good the bad and the ugly...

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Maybe I'm just not skillfull enough. I truly believe a 60 footer is too much for 2 persons to handle in nasty weather.

OTOH if someone wants to lend me their 60 plus footer for a year or two, we'll sail and I come back with a detailed report on how we fared
I think one really just needs to blow up their paradigms. Short-short sail early. Don't be shy about using the auxilliary and I think riding out big stuff has to be a lot easier. Lord knows I rather be shorted, engine running and making 7-9 knots towards the nearest storm "exit" than bashing away for days.

And the bigger the boat the bigger the tank and the longer I can motor. And there is nothing wrong with using every resource on board to get out of harm's way.

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Surely by now you realize that in hard weather and in open sea, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to handle.
I am sure there is something going on here about the "discontinuity" of internet conversations but I am getting confused. Up above you say you'd like 4 friends + a professional or 2.

Well, yeah! Of course a big boat is easy to handle with 6 "friends and professionals" + you - LOL...

For a crew of 2 where typically there is "one" real sailor and where the couple is in their 60's+ A 60 foot boat may not be a great idea...

They need to be very fit, very experienced and even then they have to stay ahead of the boat and the weather.
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Old 11-09-2014, 00:42   #94
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I have had live-in help for 30 years. You certianly get used to it once you get past your "privacy" paradigms. Yeah, my housekeeper ocassoinally sees me in my underpants - It does her more harm than me - LOL... But in a way she is like a doctor. She gets to see the good the bad and the ugly...

For a crew of 2 where typically there is "one" real sailor and where the couple is in their 60's+ A 60 foot boat may not be a great idea...

They need to be very fit, very experienced and even then they have to stay ahead of the boat and the weather.
2 good issues here. First, Singapore is great for discreet Amahs,

The second is the design 'factors" in modern boats. I have long felt that part of the design criteria should include absolute ease of use for sail handling. There is no reason at all why 2 people could not handle a 60 footer if all lines headed to the cockpit, and if the sails were self furling and the mainsail had its own nice system of packing away.

With electric this and electric that, plus backup systems, it should be easier than it is on some designs. Having to keep going forward all the time is pants. Find a sail configuration that does not need constant sail changes. But then, Im a lover of using one sail and shortening it rather than keep swapping out....... I dont mind putting up a spinnaker from time to time but even that is dependent on whether Im going to get a few hours out of soft winds or else its a lot of work for little return.

So now we have established that sailing a 60 footer is no problem for two to operate... Why does it take 5 people to clean the darned thing........
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:45   #95
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I am sure there is something going on here about the "discontinuity" of internet conversations but I am getting confused. Up above you say you'd like 4 friends + a professional or 2.

Well, yeah! Of course a big boat is easy to handle with 6 "friends and professionals" + you - LOL...

For a crew of 2 where typically there is "one" real sailor and where the couple is in their 60's+ A 60 foot boat may not be a great idea...

They need to be very fit, very experienced and even then they have to stay ahead of the boat and the weather.

No need for confusion. A bigger crew on a long ocean passage is better not because the size of the vessel demands more people on watch, but because you have room for them, and it's nice not to be on watch four hours out of every eight, or whatever. It's nice to have people with a variety of skills to contribute and not be entirely dependent on your own skill sets. It's nice to be better rested, and its nice to be able to discuss and get input from several people, when you have some problem or challenge. At least three good sailors on board is really good because then you have reliably eight hours between your watches so you can actually get a good sleep on a regular basis, something people on short-handed vessels generally don't get (or else they don't keep good watches). A really good cook on board is a treasure, and if you can reduce that person's workload in other areas so that he or she can concentrate on cooking, that really changes life on board. A really good mechanic. Someone with some medical skills. It's just about impossible to have all the skills you would really like to have on board on a long crossing in just a couple of people.

In the trade winds all of this is less critical, but on a Northern, West to East Atlantic crossing, for example, or some such similar passage, much more so. It's a luxury, of course, but if you have the space on board, it's much more pleasant and probably much safer.

Of course as Seaworthy Lass mentioned, more people means more complicated interpersonal relationships and it means management of groups of people -- that's a skill in itself and if you get it wrong, or get the wrong people on board, it can be hell. But spending time on board with a crew with good chemistry among itself is really pleasant and fun, so it can just as easily be a positive as a negative.

None of this has anything to do with the specific workload of running a big versus small vessel. If I were just two people, or even single handed, crossing an ocean, I would much, much prefer a well set up vessel of 60 to 65 feet, versus something smaller. There are a few downsides -- if you have to change a sail, for example, but many more pluses. A bigger boat is simply less affected by and stressed by strong weather, and gives you a much more stable platform. If you are single handed, and need to do something on the foredeck in strong weather, for example, will you prefer that on the 60 footer, or the 30 footer? Unless it were a matter of life and death, I don't think I would ever even go onto the foredeck of a 30 footer in a F9 alone -- that's practically suicide. Whereas on a 60 footer, or even on my boat, a 54 footer, if you run off downwind while you're doing your job, it's quite stable in a F9, and you have wide side decks to crawl down, and so it's not actually that bad.

So long, of course, as you don't have to change a sail which is too big for one person to move -- things like that will be the limiting factor.

But again, on a 60 footer, why sail single handed, or double handed? You've got plenty of room for more people.

That's thread drift, but a fairly interesting topic, I think.
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:50   #96
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

I do not think there is any argument about bigger is better. The ride, the space, the ............well it just is!

The main reason for smaller is.......... cost. On every front its cheaper to go smaller.

I would have a 50-70 footer if I could afford it......... I cant. Fricking berth charges alone make my innermost parts ache.........
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:58   #97
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
T
I have "single handed" a 110'er - from NZ to fiji (owner couple on boat but did not help very much). All hydraulic furling and winches - watch the gribs and radar and furl ahead of time if you can (and usually you can). Furl all the sails and turn the motor on if there is any risk of things getting dicy (squalls). It was all pretty easy . . . .so long as the hydraulics worked . . . you were screwed if the hydraulics broke.
I guess that's a limiting factor and I think that might make me nervous.

My boat (54' on deck, 25 tons loaded) has four powered winches, but that is the full extent of powered controls. All my furlers are conventional, rope-operated ones, big but conventional in design (a Selden Furlex S400 each for the two headsails). You just put the furling lines on a powered winch. It would be laborious, but I could furl and unfurl and trim all the sails without any power assist, if I had to, grinding them in or out on a normal winch. My powered winches are electric and not hydraulic, so simpler.

A question for my ideal 60-65 footer would be whether or not to stick with this system, or go to something like the Selden system which has the electric motors built right into the furling mechanism. There is much less to go wrong with these, and they are easier to use, but you become more dependent on the powered mechanism. Hmmm.


By the way, in-mast furling becomes a Godsend when the sails get to this size. It requires a fraction of the force to roll an in-mast furling mainsail in or out horizontally, compared to hoisting a conventional battened main vertically. At some point it becomes almost impossible to get a battened main up single handed without a powered winch, whereas even a very large in-mast furling mainsails require very little force.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:00   #98
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

A question for my ideal 60-65 footer would be whether or not to stick with this system, or go to something like the Selden system which has the electric motors built right into the furling mechanism. There is much less to go wrong with these, and they are easier to use, but you become more dependent on the powered mechanism. Hmmm.
Down to price and reliability. If it breaks, can you manually over ride it?
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:24   #99
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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2 good issues here. First, Singapore is great for discreet Amahs,

The second is the design 'factors" in modern boats. I have long felt that part of the design criteria should include absolute ease of use for sail handling. There is no reason at all why 2 people could not handle a 60 footer if all lines headed to the cockpit, and if the sails were self furling and the mainsail had its own nice system of packing away.
[QUOTE=Dockhead;1625444If I were just two people, or even single handed, crossing an ocean, I would much, much prefer a well set up vessel of 60 to 65 feet, versus something smaller. [/QUOTE]

I was watching Yachting Weekly or some such show and there was this sleek Italian 60+ footer being sailed by a guy in loafers.

I apologize I didn't get the name of the boat as when mulit-million dollar boats show up on sailing weekly my eyes glaze over...

Anyway this thing was 100% push button and not one line or sheet or winch visible on deck.

He steered with a wheel but I doubt he had to. When he tacked he pressed a button and all the sail handling was done for him.

The happy, under deck electric "wenches" doing all the work.

I have no idea what happens when there is an electrical failure - LOL...
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:32   #100
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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I have no idea what happens when there is an electrical failure - LOL...
Oh you do.

He calls for his helicopter or back up boat...........
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:57   #101
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I was watching Yachting Weekly or some such show and there was this sleek Italian 60+ footer being sailed by a guy in loafers.

I apologize I didn't get the name of the boat as when mulit-million dollar boats show up on sailing weekly my eyes glaze over...

Anyway this thing was 100% push button and not one line or sheet or winch visible on deck.

He steered with a wheel but I doubt he had to. When he tacked he pressed a button and all the sail handling was done for him.

The happy, under deck electric "wenches" doing all the work.

I have no idea what happens when there is an electrical failure - LOL...
Well, I guess whatever turn you on. That kind of rig, I think, is made for showing on TV, or showing off to your friends as you sail across the bay to the club, and not for sailing in real, practical conditions. Imagine how much maintenance it requires; imagine the cascade of failures which will happen when something goes wrong, something breaks, a wrap forms on a hidden winch, etc., etc., etc., etc. How would you diagnose and fix it? What kind of spares would you have to carry?

Regular electric powered winches are exceedingly simple and I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who's ever had a problem with one. And if you lose power or the drive mechanism fails, just stick in a winch handle, and they work just like normal winches.

I don't know about hydraulics. I guess in theory hydraulics can be pretty bomb-proof, too -- after all, we use them for our pilots. You have pump, lines, and hydraulic motors or actuators, and that's about it. It's not rocket science to diagnose, bleed, fix a hydraulic system. I'm not sure, however, how I would feel about having a boat with all hydraulic furlers and winches. Electric is maybe better since every device is independent from the other; you don't have any single thing (except your power supply) which could fail and take down your whole system.
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:07   #102
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Maybe it's time for a refresher from an earlier post. This happened on our 53ft Oyster with manual over rides and a drunken idiot on board making matters worse. If it had happened on a 65ft boat, same situation, looking back... it would have ended badly.

Originally Posted by Kenomac
<I>We had a Mojo issue of our own just a few hours ago leaving Garrucha, Spain for Cartegena. Too weird... here's what happened:

We left for Cartegena today around 10am. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. We got just outside the breakwater... everything was fine, until I smelled electrical smoke.... fire! So maybe 300 yards from the harbor entrance, I immediately
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:14   #103
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Having just crossed the North Sea with you, I can say with confidence that lack of sailing skill is not among your problems

Surely by now you realize that in hard weather and in open sea, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to handle. Evans is right -- the real challenge is keeping up with the maintenance, the volume of which goes up exponentially with length. Not handling. Or even docking, I daresay.

When I bought my boat, five years ago, she was not the size I wanted. My heart was set on an Oyster 485; I had a contract on and deposit paid on one owned by the guy who is now the owner of Britain's America's Cup team. That boat seemed to me just the perfect size; I really didn't want a boat over 50', but my boat appeared, and she was so lovely, in such beautiful condition -- I couldn't resist, and I bit my tongue where size was concerned.

Now I realize how ignorant I was; she is not in any way too big; in fact, she could be a bit longer to good effect. I would certainly never want anything smaller, ever. I single hand my boat without any real challenge. A bigger boat is a more stable platform; it's exactly what you want in strong conditions. About 60 feet of waterline would be really nice. Really good things start to happen up there.
Thanks for the compliment,

I certainly agree that a bigger boat is more stable (your f.eks. versus my 40 footer). Maybe I'm also old-fashioned. I'm not certain that we can handle a 60 footer in heavy weather. Perhaps I've just not sailed in 60 footers and that is the reason.
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:15   #104
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

My feeling is:

As long, as You can have an "all electric" boat, the short handed sailing is possible without drama.
When You really need to go hydraulic - You really need a larger, competent crew (engineer included).

As long, as You can keep to powered winches (with manual override) it's O.K.
When You need to resort to captive winches, You really need a larger, competent crew (engineer included).

You need all electric motors readily accessible and easy to replace. You need to keep a couple of spares.
Good to have a couple of electric winch handles of WinchRite kind when You need to use manual overrides.
And You need enough of winches...

Some time ago, in one harbour I saw three nice yachts of 65 - 65 + size.
One had two winches in the cockpit and three vertical winches neatly grouped on deck at the mast.
Second had one winch on the mast and four in the cockpit.
The last one had two winches on the mast and seven in the cockpit.
All were sloops, with inner and outer forestay rollers + bowsprit for asymetrics + spinnaker gear.

Short examination showed that the work dedicated on first two boats to two big primaries on each of first two boats was alloted to five winches in the last boat.
Surely I would prefer the last arrangement for short handed sailing...
Even if the adverts for first two boats sing the praise of "clean, uncluttered, minimalist look of the deck"...

I just hate the word "minimalist". All the time I see it in print, it mean somebody demand to be paid much more for NOT delivering what I really need...

Cheers,

Tomasz
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:56   #105
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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My feeling is:

As long, as You can have an "all electric" boat, the short handed sailing is possible without drama.
When You really need to go hydraulic - You really need a larger, competent crew (engineer included).

As long, as You can keep to powered winches (with manual override) it's O.K.
When You need to resort to captive winches, You really need a larger, competent crew (engineer included).

You need all electric motors readily accessible and easy to replace. You need to keep a couple of spares.
Good to have a couple of electric winch handles of WinchRite kind when You need to use manual overrides.
And You need enough of winches...

Some time ago, in one harbour I saw three nice yachts of 65 - 65 + size.
One had two winches in the cockpit and three vertical winches neatly grouped on deck at the mast.
Second had one winch on the mast and four in the cockpit.
The last one had two winches on the mast and seven in the cockpit.
All were sloops, with inner and outer forestay rollers + bowsprit for asymetrics + spinnaker gear.

Short examination showed that the work dedicated on first two boats to two big primaries on each of first two boats was alloted to five winches in the last boat.
Surely I would prefer the last arrangement for short handed sailing...
Even if the adverts for first two boats sing the praise of "clean, uncluttered, minimalist look of the deck"...

I just hate the word "minimalist". All the time I see it in print, it mean somebody demand to be paid much more for NOT delivering what I really need...

Cheers,

Tomasz

All very sensible. The only thing I would disagree about is the necessity of having spare electric motors for your winches. They are extremely reliable, and besides that, they can be operated by hand (built in backup), and besides that, if you have a decent number of winches, they can substitute for one another in case of a problem.

On "minimalism" -- I am with you 100%. How much I hate boats which are designed to be sleek and cool and minimalist at the expense of function and safety.

My boat has 8 winches in the cockpit and 2 on the mast, and in my opinion, that's only barely enough for a cutter rigged boat of this size, and only because the running rigging is exceptionally well organized. Doing a lot of barber-hauling lately, we could have done with a couple more winches yet. My very creative shipmates, on my recent North Sea crossing, arranged a double-ended barber hauler for the main headsail around two turning blocks on the after deck in order to lead it all the way around to the opposite side of the boat in order to use one of the lazy side winches! Very clever. Since we were barber-hauling the self-tacking staysail as well, we had an overwhelming number of lines to deal with. Oh, the things we do to get upwind!
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