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Old 10-09-2014, 09:03   #76
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The custom yachtbuilders will construct whatever you want, and I mean whatever. Like you, I have firm views what makes a good boat and it is not close to the production boat norm. They don't bat an eyelid. If it can physically be done, it will be done.

A lot of your requirments are not expensive and would actually make the boat cheaper.

If you start with known hull design like the Van de Stadt Stadship the cost is likely to less than an equivalent Oyster.


Yup, it exists. Just gotta stop looking at production boats, they are designed to please the masses (lowest common denominator). I know a couple who cruised their 80' plus ketch well into their late 80's (no paid crew), it's all about design. This boat was a staysail ketch with all roller furling (Havfruen). You are trying to jam a lot into a small package, though. All of the features you desire are not that uncommon on slightly larger custom boats.
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:04   #77
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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O.K. maybe it was gusting 30. And was in a long, narrow (1 mile wide) channel so seas not able to fully develope. ( I did have another 700 r.p.m. of power available......)

But this discussion still amazes me as the cost of adding, say 2 knots of windward VMG by sail must be something on the order of 100 times as expensive as the same performance increase by engine.

I applaud people who shun engine use. But for this lofty goal (5Knot VMG), just double your engine power at your next repower and be done with it. I nearly tripled mine (15 to 40).

Steve
I don't shun engine use, and increasing engine power to give yourself more options is probably a very good idea. Dashew's boats all have a lot of horsepower for their weight. I prefer to sail, but when I really need to make miles, I will do whatever I have to, I think like most long-distance cruisers.

Use the motor to windward, and sail just when you have the right conditions to do so enjoyably -- that's the basic logic of the motorsailer, and although it's not really exactly for me, I see great validity and practicality in this approach. It's what the great majority of cruisers do anyway -- motorsailers just admit it honestly and are optimized for that pattern of usage.
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:08   #78
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Just to add a comment - all this and of course we can still expound the virtues of "Cruising on < $500 per month"

As, I believe, F. Scott Fitzgerald once noted "The rich are different from you and I" and the reply was "yes, they have more money"

Sigh! I wish my problem was trying to find the 60-65 foot boat of my dreams, but alas - reality always sets in when I see the price tag.

As someone else noted - I do wonder about having permanent crew on board. I suspect my tastes would run to being by ourselves.

OTOH - great thread. Dreams are what keeps life exciting
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:17   #79
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Well, it’s really a matter of taste, and I don’t assert that my taste is any more valid than anyone else’s. Everyone who likes them is welcome to his “fat-bottomed girls”, but I don’t like them, either in boats or in humans .

As to weight: in smaller boats, you have the devil’s choice between a boat which is light and fast, or heavy and seaworthy and comfortable. One of the very great luxuries of a big boat is that size by itself gives comfort and seaworthiness; so you can be more aggressive with the weight, and in the end, you can have both speed and stability. I don’t need a “bulldozer of the seas”; my present boat, although at about 200 D/L is rather light (due to full balsa core and Kevlar), is already very comfortable in all kinds of weather. That’s not “ultralight”; that’s in the middle of the “racer-cruiser” range, which is perfect for a big boat, in my opinion. If I were to have a bit longer boat, I would want all the extra length to go into speed and weatherliness, not more comfort, of which I already have enough. Pilots say “speed is life”; the same is true for boats, well maybe it’s not life itself. Boat speed is what gets you to weather, too – boat speed wipes out leeway, for example (and a loss of boat speed increases leeway). Light = fast, in boats as in other conveyances. Light means less wetted surface, less inertia, a smaller, more manageable sail plan. Light is all good, where performance is concerned -- just ask any racer.

So you can make 5 knots VMG to windward in 12 knots of true wind? Can you do it with 20? 30? This is very inspiring; details, please! If you can do it in that big barge, then surely it must be possible for me to achieve somehow.
Agreed light is good too, especially at lower hull speeds or if you can get to plane, but I don't think that is your ambition. Speed with comfort is even better. When you find the holy grail, let us know.

Yes, I can do more than 5kt VMG to windward in that speed range in my, what is she now, a fat bottomed barge? A little over 6kt in the sweet spot of around 20kt before I start to reef. The problem is below 12kt...
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:22   #80
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Kanter 60 tics a few boxes
1997 Kanter 18m (59') Custom Pilothouse Yacht Sail Boat For Sale -

64ft Pilothouse Ketch
64ft Pilothouse Ketch | J. Simpson Ltd. Marine Designers and Consultants
with changes this could work, the engine could be moved to where the galley is to create a large standup engine room.
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:34   #81
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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but a Gunboat -- now, well, a Gunboat . . . hmmm, yes, that could be really, really nice. Such a vessel actually ticks more of my boxes than any existing design I know of except for Beowulf,

Drawbacks are pretty few -- load carrying capacity. The fact that it's a cat. Otherwise looks pretty damned good.
LOL.......... I was hoping would thrash at me for mentioning Catamarans. However, the Dockhead I know is a pretty fair person and allows all things to be in sailing. YOu didnt let me down although I was gearing up for a tease in this thread...

Drawback for the Gunboat......... Price...... it hurts. At my income level anyways....
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:39   #82
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Agreed light is good too, especially at lower hull speeds or if you can get to plane, but I don't think that is your ambition. Speed with comfort is even better. When you find the holy grail, let us know.

Yes, I can do more than 5kt VMG to windward in that speed range in my, what is she now, a fat bottomed barge? A little over 6kt in the sweet spot of around 20kt before I start to reef. The problem is below 12kt...
The "barge" bit was just a bit of good-natured fun. That's a gorgeous boat, of course, the envy of just about everyone on here

"The problem is below 12kt"?! There is no problem below 12kt -- just use the motor. If you can keep up 5+ knots VMG from 12 to 30 knots then that's the best windward performance I have every heard of from a pure cruising boat. That's really great performance. How do you get it? What's your tacking angle? What sails do you have up at 30 knots?
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:42   #83
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Just to add a comment - all this and of course we can still expound the virtues of "Cruising on < $500 per month"

As, I believe, F. Scott Fitzgerald once noted "The rich are different from you and I" and the reply was "yes, they have more money"

Sigh! I wish my problem was trying to find the 60-65 foot boat of my dreams, but alas - reality always sets in when I see the price tag.

As someone else noted - I do wonder about having permanent crew on board. I suspect my tastes would run to being by ourselves.

OTOH - great thread. Dreams are what keeps life exciting
Dreams are free

As to permanent crew -- if you have permanent crew in your land house, I don't see why they would bother you on your boat. I would not, personally, want to cross oceans with just two people on board. Exhausting. Three or four friends and a professional or two is ideal, in my opinion.
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:48   #84
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Dreams are free

As to permanent crew -- if you have permanent crew in your land house, I don't see why they would bother you on your boat. I would not, personally, want to cross oceans with just two people on board. Exhausting. Three or four friends and a professional or two is ideal, in my opinion.
And our differences on CF are to be celebrated .
I would hate the intimacy of sailing long term in such relatively close quarters (no matter the size of your yacht) with anything other than two on board.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:51   #85
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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The "barge" bit was just a bit of good-natured fun. That's a gorgeous boat, of course, the envy of just about everyone on here

"The problem is below 12kt"?! There is no problem below 12kt -- just use the motor. If you can keep up 5+ knots VMG from 12 to 30 knots then that's the best windward performance I have every heard of from a pure cruising boat. That's really great performance. How do you get it? What's your tacking angle? What sails do you have up at 30 knots?
I got the humour. Must use those smilies more . Rather than use the motor or bash close hauled into a head sea I'd rather wait or go somewhere else for a while. As you know, gentlemen don't sail to weather. What we all need rather than a new whizzo bat-boat is more time and leisure. Smell the roses and set off when everything is perfect . Sailing to a schedule really spoils things.

I don't log my performance scientifically, but now and then estimate tacking angles from the plotter. I would say about 100 deg is possible with attention and 95ish in flat water. I sail on an apparent wind angle that ends up at a little less than 30 deg, say 26 or 27. Boat speed is 7.5kt in 30kt of wind with the staysail and a partly furled main. Flat sails and closed up sheeting angle. She will be a little over-reefed at that, but better that than too many wraps on the yankee. I get say 8.2kt at 22kt true with full yankee and main and am a little under reefed.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:58   #86
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Dreams are free

As to permanent crew -- if you have permanent crew in your land house, I don't see why they would bother you on your boat. I would not, personally, want to cross oceans with just two people on board. Exhausting. Three or four friends and a professional or two is ideal, in my opinion.
I suppose having live-in help is something that just takes getting used to. I've never had real live in help so I don't know. on the confines of a boat it would seem to me to get in the way.

I noticed that evans said he didn't take exception to handling a 60 plus footer, more to managing it (maintenance, hauling sails etc). whilst powered winches and other aids certianly make all of this easier(including docking) i can't help but wonder what happens when the chips are down and the boat handling has to be done storm conditions (including docking).

Maybe I'm just not skillfull enough. I truly believe a 60 footer is too much for 2 persons to handle in nasty weather.

OTOH if someone wants to lend me their 60 plus footer for a year or two, we'll sail and I come back with a detailed report on how we fared
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Old 10-09-2014, 14:26   #87
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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I got the humour. Must use those smilies more . Rather than use the motor or bash close hauled into a head sea I'd rather wait or go somewhere else for a while. As you know, gentlemen don't sail to weather. What we all need rather than a new whizzo bat-boat is more time and leisure. Smell the roses and set off when everything is perfect . Sailing to a schedule really spoils things.
Well, I have to argue a little about this whole "sailing to a schedule" business. If you are just sailing around the bay, then you can sail without a schedule. But when you have to get a thousand miles somewhere -- you can't just lie around waiting for the perfect weather. Sometimes you need to get upwind. If "gentleman" means a person without any purpose in life, a layabout on an independent income, then -- ok. That's not me or my life, and never was.



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I don't log my performance scientifically, but now and then estimate tacking angles from the plotter. I would say about 100 deg is possible with attention and 95ish in flat water. I sail on an apparent wind angle that ends up at a little less than 30 deg, say 26 or 27. Boat speed is 7.5kt in 30kt of wind with the staysail and a partly furled main. Flat sails and closed up sheeting angle. She will be a little over-reefed at that, but better that than too many wraps on the yankee. I get say 8.2kt at 22kt true with full yankee and main and am a little under reefed.
That is much better performance than you practically ever find in any kind of cruising boat. 26 degrees AWA is something fantastic for a cruising boat; in fact, I think that's far into race boat territory. 95 degrees tacking angle? 7.5 knots in a F7, hard on the wind? I would be more than pleased with such results. You can go anywhere you want to, in a boat capable of such performance.
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Old 10-09-2014, 14:38   #88
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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I suppose having live-in help is something that just takes getting used to. I've never had real live in help so I don't know. on the confines of a boat it would seem to me to get in the way.

I noticed that evans said he didn't take exception to handling a 60 plus footer, more to managing it (maintenance, hauling sails etc). whilst powered winches and other aids certianly make all of this easier(including docking) i can't help but wonder what happens when the chips are down and the boat handling has to be done storm conditions (including docking).

Maybe I'm just not skillfull enough. I truly believe a 60 footer is too much for 2 persons to handle in nasty weather.

OTOH if someone wants to lend me their 60 plus footer for a year or two, we'll sail and I come back with a detailed report on how we fared
Having just crossed the North Sea with you, I can say with confidence that lack of sailing skill is not among your problems

Surely by now you realize that in hard weather and in open sea, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to handle. Evans is right -- the real challenge is keeping up with the maintenance, the volume of which goes up exponentially with length. Not handling. Or even docking, I daresay.

When I bought my boat, five years ago, she was not the size I wanted. My heart was set on an Oyster 485; I had a contract on and deposit paid on one owned by the guy who is now the owner of Britain's America's Cup team. That boat seemed to me just the perfect size; I really didn't want a boat over 50', but my boat appeared, and she was so lovely, in such beautiful condition -- I couldn't resist, and I bit my tongue where size was concerned.

Now I realize how ignorant I was; she is not in any way too big; in fact, she could be a bit longer to good effect. I would certainly never want anything smaller, ever. I single hand my boat without any real challenge. A bigger boat is a more stable platform; it's exactly what you want in strong conditions. About 60 feet of waterline would be really nice. Really good things start to happen up there.
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Old 10-09-2014, 15:21   #89
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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^^

Realize that the ultimate logical conclusion of dashew's thinking is an 80' power boat.

When steve and I were testing drogues on his stern deck (on the power boat), Beth and Linda were up on the fly bridge, and Linda leaned over to beth and quietly said "this is the only one of his boats that I have not been scared by"..
Dashew puts out designs that challenge the conventional designs for similar sized yachts, and I admire both his sail (Sundeer, Beowulf) and his power designs for the FPB line. The FPB is the first motor yacht that made me think: "Here is a motor boat I would take around the world as a couple."

Conversely, while I can also see the appeal of the Nordhavn line for world cruising couples, they do not appeal to me. The FPB, captured my attention and I think it would be a blast to own and cruise, just like his sailboats.

I say this with respect for Dashew and for your own experience too. Given your extensive cruising experience as a couple (you with your wife), and your time on his power boat, I am curious what you think of his boats.
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Old 10-09-2014, 16:59   #90
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

[QUOTE=Dockhead;1625088]Well, I have to argue a little about this whole "sailing to a schedule" business. If you are just sailing around the bay, then you can sail without a schedule. But when you have to get a thousand miles somewhere -- you can't just lie around waiting for the perfect weather. Sometimes you need to get upwind. If "gentleman" means a person without any purpose in life, a layabout on an independent income, then -- ok. That's not me or my life, and never was.
Quote:

In this context I think it means a decent person who does his best to avoid discomfort. Not that you are anything but a decent person of course . I'm wondering about some masochistic tendencies though. You did say that you had just got back from a 4 month cruise
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That is much better performance than you practically ever find in any kind of cruising boat. 26 degrees AWA is something fantastic for a cruising boat; in fact, I think that's far into race boat territory. 95 degrees tacking angle? 7.5 knots in a F7, hard on the wind? I would be more than pleased with such results. You can go anywhere you want to, in a boat capable of such performance.
Might seem good but it's still 5kt or so vmg. These are also best figures. A bit of sloppy sailing and using the autopilot a lot and a big sea or all together and the performance is much worse. You won't get anywhere too quickly like that hence my comments above.

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Having just crossed the North Sea with you, I can say with confidence that lack of sailing skill is not among your problems

Surely by now you realize that in hard weather and in open sea, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to handle.
Yes.

Quote:
Evans is right -- the real challenge is keeping up with the maintenance, the volume of which goes up exponentially with length. Not handling. Or even docking, I daresay.
So now I'll have to disagree. Surely the maintenance is in proportion to the amount of equipment you have isn't it? How many more of the following bits of kit does a 65ft boat have compared to a 50ft boat? Engine, generator, mast furler, headsail furler, mast, sails, windlass, primary winches, secondary winches, rudder, steering links, autopilot, radar, washing machine, air con unit, bilge pump, toilet pumps etc. These are the things that need attention. Not much difference really between the two boats except the size of the parts, but it takes just as long to grease a small winch as a big one and just as long to pull out the impeller for example.

With some things work does go up is in proportion to size, but with those items it is cost effective to employ dayworkers to help. I'm thinking of hull polishing, antifoul, bottom scrubbing and stainless polishing.

So if I had to guess a figure I'd guess the work load is proportional to the cubed root of size.
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