Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-09-2014, 13:43   #31
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Oyster 625 is being build to fulfill the market described. BUT... I was on an Oyster 62 just last week because I was considering the purchase of a 62, and discovered all I would get for the extra money was crews quarters and the added headache of dealing with heavier objects like the sails. The Oyster 56 and 575 actually work better for a cruising couple because the crew isn't needed, so no space is dedicated to having them.

We've decided to stick with what we have. The boat is finally equipped perfect for the two of us, and for 3-4 others who might visit. If necessary, the two of us can manage taking down the sails and my wife is capable of hoisting me up the mast. A good friend who's chartered his Swan 65 for ten years, also advised me against any sailboat larger than 60ft. It's not the docking or sailing the vessel that's the problem, it's managing and dealing with the heavier objects.
I love the Holman & Pye Oyster 62 -- floating sex. I came very close to buying an H&P Oyster 485; had a deposit paid. But with time I realize that Oysters are not for me -- they are solid fiberglass, 4" thick, plain fiberglass with no exotic materials, and are heavy as lead. To make up for it, they have huge sail plans. As a result -- just what you experienced -- you have giant sails to wrestle with. And moderate performance. They have fully skegged rudders. I want something lighter, stronger, and faster.

By the way, the "heavier objects" bit is another argument for the genius of Steve Dashew. Even Beowulf has a beam of only 16' (like my boat), displacement of only 27 tons (slightly more than my boat). To move that through the water, he doesn't need a giant sail plan. And to boot, Beowulf is a ketch, with the sail plan broken up a bit. Very, very interesting design.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 13:53   #32
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

^^

Realize that the ultimate logical conclusion of dashew's thinking is an 80' power boat.

When steve and I were testing drogues on his stern deck (on the power boat), Beth and Linda were up on the fly bridge, and Linda leaned over to beth and quietly said "this is the only one of his boats that I have not been scared by"..
__________________

__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 13:54   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Bah! I must have 5 knot VMG to windward! For that I need a real sailing machine, bulb keel, probably carbon rig.
Dockhead, for a cruising 60 - 65 footer it is rather impossible. Assume tacking through 90 degrees and add something for a leeway.
You will need a boat sailing upwind, in broad spectrum of conditions, maintaining 90 - 95 % of hull speed all the time.
May be on a racer with big crew, but on cruiser?
Call the boat "Unicorn"
You need 80 footer to fulfill this demand.
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:13   #34
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
There is no perfect boat or perfect size.
However lots and lots of money will make it work in any situation.
Lol! Ain't that the truth!! Unfortunately, that means we have to set about earning it. A singularly dreary task
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:29   #35
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Dockhead, for a cruising 60 - 65 footer it is rather impossible. Assume tacking through 90 degrees and add something for a leeway.
You will need a boat sailing upwind, in broad spectrum of conditions, maintaining 90 - 95 % of hull speed all the time.
May be on a racer with big crew, but on cruiser?
Call the boat "Unicorn"
You need 80 footer to fulfill this demand.
You alone picked up on the main challenge in my List. The hardest one, and also, the most non-negotiable.

Your math, however, is out.

With a 90 degree tacking angle, you only need boat speed of 7 knots to achieve 5 knots VMG to windward. With 95 degrees, you need 7.4. With 100, you need 7.8. This is not 90 -- 95% of hull speed at all. 7.8 knots is only 84% of hull speed even of my present boat. For a boat with a waterline of 60 feet, this speed will be achievable on a wide range of true wind speeds if -- IF -- you get the sails, sheeting angles, and so forth, exactly right.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:36   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,446
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

In the midst of all this luxury and go fast stuff, Dockhead, you relegate the professional crew to a tiny cabin with pipe berths??? My limited knowledge of such crews suggests that unless you paid well above the norm you would have some difficulty in retaining GOOD quality crew/skippers when you treat them so poorly. Would YOU want to live like that?

As to the design... well, it seems like you are trying to get a quart into a pint pot, and most such efforts fail in the long run.

Dream on, mate!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:37   #37
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^

Realize that the ultimate logical conclusion of dashew's thinking is an 80' power boat.

When steve and I were testing drogues on his stern deck (on the power boat), Beth and Linda were up on the fly bridge, and Linda leaned over to beth and quietly said "this is the only one of his boats that I have not been scared by"..
You were testing drogues with Steve Dashew?? Wow; I'm impressed.

His 80' powerboat is brilliant -- fabulous. I love it. But there's one small problem -- I like to sail. So I'll stick with Beowulf A fabulous artifact, with beam and displacement similar to my present boat, but cranking out 300 mile days day in and day out . . .
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:42   #38
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
In the midst of all this luxury and go fast stuff, Dockhead, you relegate the professional crew to a tiny cabin with pipe berths??? My limited knowledge of such crews suggests that unless you paid well above the norm you would have some difficulty in retaining GOOD quality crew/skippers when you treat them so poorly. Would YOU want to live like that?

As to the design... well, it seems like you are trying to get a quart into a pint pot, and most such efforts fail in the long run.

Dream on, mate!

Jim


Well, getting quarts into pint pots is the essence of engineering, isn't it? If quart pots were lying around, there would be no need for any effort in design, right?

As to crew -- I have no aspiration to having a professional skipper. I'm the skipper, and don't intend to give up my position. More of a Boat Boy, jack of all trades, great at fixing things, taking the odd watch, sourcing parts in port instead of me . I think a pipe cot will be fine
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:53   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You alone picked up on the main challenge in my List. The hardest one, and also, the most non-negotiable.

Your math, however, is out.

With a 90 degree tacking angle, you only need boat speed of 7 knots to achieve 5 knots VMG to windward. With 95 degrees, you need 7.4. With 100, you need 7.8. This is not 90 -- 95% of hull speed at all. 7.8 knots is only 84% of hull speed even of my present boat. For a boat with a waterline of 60 feet, this speed will be achievable on a wide range of true wind speeds if -- IF -- you get the sails, sheeting angles, and so forth, exactly right.

Hull speed of 60 - 65 footer (LOD) will be (with quite traditional hull You want to have) in the 10 - 11 knots bracket (waterline of about 16.5 m to 18 m.)
Looking at polar diagrams for many boats You will notice that highest VMG is abot 5 - 10 degrees out of tacking angle. Add modest 5 % for leeway, and Your COG will be, hopefully, about 55 degrees from the wind (and this will be very good result in real world). In higher waves You will be probably close to 60 degrees. So my math may be not so out as for first glance
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:55   #40
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

So then WHY do you want to sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Nice. I like power cats, but I like to sail, so no thank

Not that it's any cheaper. After 3000 miles of sailing this year, I realize that i have incurred 20% to 30% wear of my sails and running rigging, and I now must order new sails this year. If you figure $50,000 for a set of sails (larger boats -- sails go up geometrically in cost), that amounts to maybe even $5 a mile. I can motor much cheaper than that at about $2 a mile for diesel fuel.

Maybe smaller boats can sail cheaper than motoring. Smaller sails can be lighter weight, so cheaper out of proportion to their area. But not larger boats
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 14:58   #41
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

This will solve all your problems.

If you REALLY need to feel like your in a mono...... I could make you a stand with a thirty degree angle...... just turn it around depending which tack your on...

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 15:06   #42
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
How big a winch do you have or is the purchase significantly different than one-one (can't imagine that on a mast)?
I tie a snatch block onto the mast winch and run it back via the jib sheet blocks to the electric primary. The safety is run the same way on the opposite side except there she uses the winch manually. I ascend 4-5ft at a time and much slower at the spreaders. We rehearse on deck prior to me going airborne.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 15:21   #43
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I tie a snatch block onto the mast winch and run it back via the jib sheet blocks to the electric primary. The safety is run the same way on the opposite side except there she uses the winch manually. I ascend 4-5ft at a time and much slower at the spreaders. We rehearse on deck prior to me going airborne.
But then kenomac is only 80lb and 4'9 tall.............
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 16:20   #44
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Hull speed of 60 - 65 footer (LOD) will be (with quite traditional hull You want to have) in the 10 - 11 knots bracket (waterline of about 16.5 m to 18 m.)
Looking at polar diagrams for many boats You will notice that highest VMG is abot 5 - 10 degrees out of tacking angle. Add modest 5 % for leeway, and Your COG will be, hopefully, about 55 degrees from the wind (and this will be very good result in real world). In higher waves You will be probably close to 60 degrees. So my math may be not so out as for first glance
On my present boat -- 47 foot waterline, so 9.5 knots hull speed, and blown out Dacron sails, and questionable sail trimming, but with a clean hull at least, we get tacking angles of 100 degrees on a good day, at max VMG to windward, and with boat speed of 7 knots or more, so I'm sure that I can do much better than that with 10 feet more of water line length, laminate sails, good sheeting position, etc. I agree with you that normal cruising boats don't achieve this, but I'm really sure that it is attainable. Maybe even on my present boat.

The struggle is against the damned 60 degrees you mention, which is about the point where you start to lose the ability to realistically make miles to windward. This is what we must overcome, blood out of the nose (to use the Slavic expression, krov' iz nos), that is, at any cost. With a dirty hull and blown out sails, 60 degrees is what I ended up with sometimes, and it was maddening, tacking back and forth, the desired landfall just over the horizon, and not getting any closer . The knock from motion of the water surface with the wind -- common in the Baltic -- was the final blow. But waterline length overcomes a multitude of sins -- boat speed is the key to getting upwind in any case (leeway goes away, too, with enough boat speed). A clean hull. Laminate sails. And by God, we will get upwind.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 16:29   #45
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
So then WHY do you want to sail?
You're asking that on a sailing forum?

Certainly, not to save money.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"What makes the perfect boat woman...perfect" Celestialsailor Our Community 221 10-10-2017 11:38
Perfect Boat or Perfect Place? Hanna&Chris General Sailing Forum 22 08-10-2009 20:27
The Perfect Boat for Cruising? Ex-Calif Monohull Sailboats 6 01-06-2007 11:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.