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Old 09-09-2014, 10:11   #16
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Gollygosh Dockhead what an effort. That post would have taken me a week to write.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:13   #17
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Hah! Need to have some big windfall in my business to be able to do that. I'm sure it will be much more expensive than buying a standard Discovery or Contest. I guess it would be somewhere north of $2.5 million.

I would also not draw it myself -- I would hire a good professional designer, maybe Bill Dixon, who designed my present boat.

I would need to fit it inside of 20 meters, as beyond that there are huge added regulations in Europe, plus it becomes impossible to dock anywhere. So about 65 feet is the limit. But I don't need vast interior living spaces, which might even be less than what I have in my present 54' boat. So I feel pretty sure that 65' on deck with a 16' beam would be enough. I imagine something like my boat but with 2.5 meters spliced in between the forepeak cabin and anchor locker for the sail locker/crew cabin, and one meter (or so) spliced into my full-width lazarette. The engine room could grow at the expense of a little smaller salon or aft master cabin or master heads or some combination of all of that. Storage could be added under the salon floor, raised a bit higher. More hull volume will appear in the forward cabins since that space will be wider -- this can likewise be used for more storage.

I am thinking that this boat would have a bit of DNA from the Sundeers in it -- that is, the living spaces of a somewhat smaller boat with greatly expanded technical spaces and longer waterline. But if the Sundeer has living space like a 45' boat, I would not want to go quite that far. And I would not want the boat to be nearly as spartan as the Sundeers, but more like my present boat.



Last boat I built that checked almost every single one of your boxes (except it does have a transom garage) was 77', drawn by Schumacher. It cost 12.8 to complete. So, probably pretty far north of your number. Let me know when you win the lottery!
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:26   #18
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Something to think about, but the Sundeers, at 64', are fine for management by the owner. My boat, at 54' on deck and 25 tons loaded, is also just fine. I even single hand mine with relative ease, even docking.

I think a longer boat with the same beam as mine ought the be fine. That would be similar to the Sundeer at 65' x 16' versus 64' x 15' -- just a foot wider than the Sundeer. If the displacement is kept under control with a cored hull and turbo engine, the rig will not be hugely larger than mine. With powered furlers and winches, I don't think such a boat would be much harder to sail for a short-handed crew than any normal cruising boat, and probably easier in rough weather.
actually I did not really mean handle under sail/motor - I meant 'manage' as in keep everything in good working shape, keep track of the necessary spares, get the sails on and off for routine maintenance, etc.

I will also note that everyone we know with boats in the +55' size range do a bunch more motoring because it is a bunch more work first to get under sail, and to get out the light air sails. . . . and of course because they have a good motor and lots of fuel and tend to have a schedule so why not.

there is also often a 'systems challenge/step function' as these sorts of boats often turn into 'generator boats', but you only have room for one genset. All the superyacht designs have developed into having two gensets, so the boat can keep working if one goes down (accidentally or for maintenance). The owner can avoid that if he absolutely insists on a battery boat, but every designer and supplier will fight him every step of the way because a gen boat is both much easier and more comfortable.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:40   #19
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

At this size, hydraulic systems start to have some real value.

They can power your winches, retractable bow/stern thrusters, roller furling, anchor windlass, dinghy crane!, alternate starting system for auxiliary engine, etc. Any other neat ideas (dinghy garage door, heavy-duty bilge pump, other motor-actuated devices) and potentially lower the electrical demand (acknowledge it is a trade-off, with an engine-driven pump required).

Just something to think about.

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Old 09-09-2014, 10:41   #20
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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How about a 78' Cat, 35' beam twin 300+ diesels, can motor over 20 knots,
Shes awesome, we got to see her in the Exumas and were blown awayyyyyy

The Staterooms - Sail Trekker
Nice. I like power cats, but I like to sail, so no thank

Not that it's any cheaper. After 3000 miles of sailing this year, I realize that i have incurred 20% to 30% wear of my sails and running rigging, and I now must order new sails this year. If you figure $50,000 for a set of sails (larger boats -- sails go up geometrically in cost), that amounts to maybe even $5 a mile. I can motor much cheaper than that at about $2 a mile for diesel fuel.

Maybe smaller boats can sail cheaper than motoring. Smaller sails can be lighter weight, so cheaper out of proportion to their area. But not larger boats
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:43   #21
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Take a look at these, close I think , I do love Sea Angel myself but try to single hand either of them , or wax them .

2005 Van De Stadt Mainsail Pilothouse Sloop 618 Sail Boat For Sale

1986 Sparkman & Stephens Motorsailor Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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Old 09-09-2014, 11:50   #22
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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get the sails on and off for routine maintenance, etc.
To me this is the limiting factor. For a while I owned a 63' LOA ketch that had a relatively short main mast. Even so the main sail was too large and heavy for two very healthy young men to carry and bend to the mast. Took all the efforts of three. The big jib two could manage with a bit of effort but was more dragging than lifting.

Once everything was rigged one person could manage the sails with the winches but if bad weather threatened and you wanted to strip the rig it would take a crew.
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Old 09-09-2014, 11:52   #23
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

The perfect 65 footer would be 42 feet long....
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:28   #24
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by typhoon View Post
Take a look at these, close I think , I do love Sea Angel myself but try to single hand either of them , or wax them .

2005 Van De Stadt Mainsail Pilothouse Sloop 618 Sail Boat For Sale

1986 Sparkman & Stephens Motorsailor Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regards
Lovely yachts that would make me happy!

The second one is 88 feet of luxury.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:54   #25
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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The perfect 65 footer would be 42 feet long....

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Old 09-09-2014, 13:16   #26
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Oyster 625 is being build to fulfill the market described. BUT... I was on an Oyster 62 just last week because I was considering the purchase of a 62, and discovered all I would get for the extra money was crews quarters and the added headache of dealing with heavier objects like the sails. The Oyster 56 and 575 actually work better for a cruising couple because the crew isn't needed, so no space is dedicated to having them.

We've decided to stick with what we have. The boat is finally equipped perfect for the two of us, and for 3-4 others who might visit. If necessary, the two of us can manage taking down the sails and my wife is capable of hoisting me up the mast. A good friend who's chartered his Swan 65 for ten years, also advised me against any sailboat larger than 60ft. It's not the docking or sailing the vessel that's the problem, it's managing and dealing with the heavier objects.
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Old 09-09-2014, 13:19   #27
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon View Post
Take a look at these, close I think , I do love Sea Angel myself but try to single hand either of them , or wax them .

2005 Van De Stadt Mainsail Pilothouse Sloop 618 Sail Boat For Sale

1986 Sparkman & Stephens Motorsailor Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regards
Nice boats, but fall far, far short of fulfilling my list of requirements. A motor sailer??!! Bah! I must have 5 knot VMG to windward! For that I need a real sailing machine, bulb keel, probably carbon rig.

This boat is closer: Beowulf - 80ft Skip Dashew Design

Wow, what a beast. Just a bit too long, at about 80 feet. I just couldn't dock that anywhere where I sail, unfortunately. Otherwise, that's getting really close.
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Old 09-09-2014, 13:23   #28
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Hah! Need to have some big windfall in my business to be able to do that. I'm sure it will be much more expensive than buying a standard Discovery or Contest. I guess it would be somewhere north of $2.5 million.

I would also not draw it myself -- I would hire a good professional designer, maybe Bill Dixon, who designed my present boat.

I would need to fit it inside of 20 meters, as beyond that there are huge added regulations in Europe, plus it becomes impossible to dock anywhere. So about 65 feet is the limit.
Hi, Dockhead

Just two remarks:

First - Discovery 67, Contest 62 or Oyster 625 are already north of 2.5 million Euro. For a one off built think rather in the region of 3 - 4 million Euro (talking not catalogue price, but sail away price).

Second - the regulations vary from country to country, but mainly added demands are for boats over 80 feet summer load waterline or over 24 metres of registraton length. Both artificial figures. So, for example Oyster 885 was designed to fit into regulations for "normal" yachts.

Cheers,

Tomasz
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Old 09-09-2014, 13:29   #29
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Oyster 625 is being build to fulfill the market described. BUT... I was on an Oyster 62 just last week because I was considering the purchase of a 62, and discovered all I would get for the extra money was crews quarters and the added headache of dealing with heavier objects like the sails. The Oyster 56 and 575 actually work better for a cruising couple because the crew isn't needed, so no space is dedicated to having them.

We've decided to stick with what we have. The boat is finally equipped perfect for the two of us, and for 3-4 others who might visit. If necessary, the two of us can manage taking down the sails and my wife is capable of hoisting me up the mast. A good friend who's chartered his Swan 65 for ten years, also advised me against any sailboat larger than 60ft. It's not the docking or sailing the vessel that's the problem, it's managing and dealing with the heavier objects.
How big a winch do you have or is the purchase significantly different than one-one (can't imagine that on a mast)?
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Old 09-09-2014, 13:36   #30
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

There is no perfect boat or perfect size.
However lots and lots of money will make it work in any situation.
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