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Old 11-09-2014, 11:43   #136
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The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

I should say those tracks are from our previous yacht, a lagoon 380, loaded for cruising from last year. I don't have any similar tracks for the L400 as most of our sailing this year has been downwind in the Portuguese trades. So far performance to windward seems similar to the 380, but we haven't done any long sails to windward to confirm.

NB..both tracks above were full main and jib. Almost time to reef perhaps but sailing was comfortable..
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:47   #137
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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That's not my boat!!

That boat was designed by the same designer -- Bill Dixon -- but produced by the Germans, who bought the Moody name when the 150-year old company when bankrupt in 2007. "Moody" is now just a stencil brand used by Hanse for their premium line of boats. They are regular mass produced boats having little to nothing in common with the boats actually made by Moody in England.

My boat is this one:

http://www.moodyowners.net/Moody_Arc...54/m54_p22.jpg

http://www.moodyowners.net/Moody_Arc...4/m54_p006.jpg

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Moody 54 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Made in England by the old company AH Moody & Co. Which was losing 150,000 pounds on every one they sold (as I heard the story), which drove the company into bankruptcy after 150 years
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:54   #138
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Back on track, this 60'r was launched in La Rochelle while we were there and I think if I was after a 60' mono it would be pretty tempting. Very cool looking boat with some great features
http://sailworks.net/gdint/index.htm
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:07   #139
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
I should say those tracks are from our previous yacht, a lagoon 380, loaded for cruising from last year. I don't have any similar tracks for the L400 as most of our sailing this year has been downwind in the Portuguese trades. So far performance to windward seems similar to the 380, but we haven't done any long sails to windward to confirm.

NB..both tracks above were full main and jib. Almost time to reef perhaps but sailing was comfortable..
Extraordinary performance, far beyond what is predicted by polar diagrams for your boat. Looks almost like magic. It's even better than a Gunboat 48, which tacks through 100 degrees (Gunboat 48 Performance - Multihull Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums).

Here is the polar for the Lagoon 380:

http://lagoon-inside.com/wp-content/...Lagoon-380.jpg
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:16   #140
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Back on track, this 60'r was launched in La Rochelle while we were there and I think if I was after a 60' mono it would be pretty tempting. Very cool looking boat with some great features
Integral 60 - voilier d'expé
Very interesting --very light, narrow, long, alu, lifting keel, batwing main, fractional rig. Hull form with a bit of Open 60 DNA. I bet it flies. Has a dinghy garage and raised nav station. Aft cockpit would be hard for me, but that still does really look like worth looking at, thank!
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:26   #141
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's not my boat!!

That boat was designed by the same designer -- Bill Dixon -- but produced by the Germans, who bought the Moody name when the 150-year old company when bankrupt in 2007.
My boat is this one:

http://www.moodyowners.net/Moody_Arc...54/m54_p22.jpg

http://www.moodyowners.net/Moody_Arc...4/m54_p006.jpg

High Quality Sailing Yachts - Moody

Moody 54 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales
I knew it was not your vessel.

As neither Monte or I can talk you into a Catamaran........ It only leaves you the option of upgrading your present vessel to achieve the numbers that you require for distance and up wind performance, or shell out lots of folding for a purpose built 60 footer.

In my, albeit, modest experience, I have found that Catamarans, generally offer EVERYTHING that you require, with the proviso that you have to take a spare hull along with you......

The advantage to you is simply that you can get a monohull cheaper than an excellent Catamaran.

Great thread Dockhead.
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:28   #142
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The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Heh, I don't really go much for polars and manufacturers literature. It tends to be a bit misleading real world sailing and observations are more pertinent. I can't take the credit for amazing sailing skills. 90% of our upwind sailing is steered by the Raymarine autopilot in wind vane mode, which generally manages to maintain course and speed much better than me. I tweak the sails and adjust the course around 33 degrees AWA and help out with the odd wave that may threaten to stall us. The autopilot also handles the tacks while I handle the jib sheets and often I fall off 10 degrees immediately before tacking to give a better angle out of the tack till we have picked up speed. This reduces the chances of going too slow through the tack and ending up head to wind. I have heard people mention they need to use engines to tack a cat, but I've never experienced that need, even in under 8k TWS. Just make sure you have at least 3.5k boat speed and be gentle
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Old 11-09-2014, 13:06   #143
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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But as to sailing performance, weight is nothing but bad, and it is not entirely compensated by a larger rig. Ask any racer!
In a semi-displacement hull, or where quick acceleration is important rounding the buoys, weight-saving matters a lot. In long range cruising, weight is not the bogeyman it is in racing. I find that flat-water light-air polars are less important than the ability to keep momentum through oncoming seas.




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The reason is that if you've got a given LWL to carry your boat's displacement in, the heavier it is, the slower it will be, even if you increase the sail plan proportionately to get the same SA/D. That's because every foot of waterline is carrying more weight, so needs more buoyancy, so you have a less and less efficient shape (either wider in the water or deeper or both) as the boat gets heavier for the same waterline.
Consider the very simple case of two boats with exactly the same hull, but one with a heavier, deeper keel. The heavier boat would need a larger rig to provide the same SA/D, much beefier rig and construction to counter the stronger righting moment, would sail flatter, smoother and with less motion, and with greater mass would be both slower to lose speed when taking oncoming seas. Do you still maintain that the heavier boat is always slower?


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I'm not racing (even if two sailboats sailing in vaguely the same direction is always a race ), but speed is life. Speed gives you the length of your legs, and at the very low speeds we travel at, small differences in speed make big differences in where we can get in x number of days. Without speed, cruising is just bobbing around in the ocean. That's not what it's about, for me at least. Inability to produce miles is a prime reason why many cruisers hang around in port most of the time, instead of sailing. I really, really like to sail. I like to explore, I like to go places. And for that, you need to get places, and thus, make miles.
I cannot agree that speed is life. Am I the only one to shorten sail regularly when the sun goes down? I'll gladly sacrifice a few miles per day for a better night's rest and so that we don't have a 4am scramble to tuck in a reef. Between covering 200 miles a day and feeling exhausted vs covering 185 and feeling like I'm on holiday, I'll take the 185 any day. Each to his own.
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Old 11-09-2014, 14:13   #144
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I knew it was not your vessel.

As neither Monte or I can talk you into a Catamaran........ It only leaves you the option of upgrading your present vessel to achieve the numbers that you require for distance and up wind performance, or shell out lots of folding for a purpose built 60 footer.

In my, albeit, modest experience, I have found that Catamarans, generally offer EVERYTHING that you require, with the proviso that you have to take a spare hull along with you......

The advantage to you is simply that you can get a monohull cheaper than an excellent Catamaran.

Great thread Dockhead.
A monohull is not indeed cheaper than a catamaran of comparable hull volume. This is a big fallacy which comes from not comparing like for like. And the kinds of monos we are talking about -- high end, non-production ones -- are actually more expensive than all but a very few cats of similar hull volume.

I don't like cats, as I have said, but I have been reading about and thinking about Gunboats these days, and I have to admit that they push just about ALL my buttons. My ideal boat doesn't exist, but the Gunboat 62, despite being a cat, is actually closer to my ideal than just about any boat I know of, and fulfills a surprisingly large percentage of my list in the first post.

A Gunboat is also a lot cheaper than building an entirely custom boat to meet my requirements. It is actually conceivable I might try one, if -- IF -- I find myself in a financial position to do so in the next couple of years. Certainly I am not at the moment

One area where a cat is simply totally superior to any mono is in the very issue of D/L ratio we were talking about above. Without ballast, well -- it's just a different ball game. The boat speeds achieved in Gunboats just blow my mind. Maybe it's really worth trying to overcome my instinctive dislike of cats.
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Old 11-09-2014, 14:22   #145
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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Extraordinary performance, far beyond what is predicted by polar diagrams for your boat. Looks almost like magic. It's even better than a Gunboat 48, which tacks through 100 degrees (Gunboat 48 Performance - Multihull Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums).

Here is the polar for the Lagoon 380:

http://lagoon-inside.com/wp-content/...Lagoon-380.jpg

I think this performance was supported somewhat by the current alongside the west coast of Italy. 1 - 1,5 kts by average, if I remember correctly
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Old 11-09-2014, 14:36   #146
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Yes, both passages are against the prevailing currents, it's clear to see the effect in the second example as tacks go from 90 degrees at the beginning of the passage to ...150??degrees in the straights...
http://www.ifremer.fr/lobtln/OTHER/t...y_currents.gif
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Old 11-09-2014, 14:40   #147
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Im not a lover of the gunboat. Not really. I admire it, like the concept, speed is amazing, however it doesnt appeal as a boat Id be in sympatico with.

A 2012 used version of this boat would set me back about $500K. Well thats not true, I would not spend that on a boat so sorry Neel boats.... Ill wait another few years for the price to drop..However....... the design, the sailability and the interior space plus speed, ease of use all make me pulse quicker.

I think its a good compromise between monos and Cats....... even heels more to make you feel at home......

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Old 11-09-2014, 14:40   #148
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by accomplice View Post
In a semi-displacement hull, or where quick acceleration is important rounding the buoys, weight-saving matters a lot. In long range cruising, weight is not the bogeyman it is in racing. I find that flat-water light-air polars are less important than the ability to keep momentum through oncoming seas.
Momentum through oncoming seas is certain a plus of heavier boats, which I failed to mention. Point acknowledged. But from this it does not follow that speed is not important.



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Originally Posted by accomplice View Post
Consider the very simple case of two boats with exactly the same hull, but one with a heavier, deeper keel. The heavier boat would need a larger rig to provide the same SA/D, much beefier rig and construction to counter the stronger righting moment, would sail flatter, smoother and with less motion, and with greater mass would be both slower to lose speed when taking oncoming seas. Do you still maintain that the heavier boat is always slower?
Yes, I do. If it were not so, then racers would not be obsessed with weight as they are. The heavier boat in your case will be carrying more wetted area in the same waterline length so will be slower with the same SA/D. It would be otherwise if the waterline length were lengthened proportionately, but we have agreed that this is all good -- that's the whole idea of bigger boats.


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I cannot agree that speed is life. Am I the only one to shorten sail regularly when the sun goes down? I'll gladly sacrifice a few miles per day for a better night's rest and so that we don't have a 4am scramble to tuck in a reef. Between covering 200 miles a day and feeling exhausted vs covering 185 and feeling like I'm on holiday, I'll take the 185 any day. Each to his own.
To each his own, of course. But just because a boat is faster doesn't mean that it has to be sailed at 100% all the time. On the contrary, a faster boat with a lighter, more easily driven hull, can be sailed with an extra reef with better effect and less damage to your forward progress. I bet you have had the same experience I've had -- didn't you sail your previous, smaller boat harder? Because if 5 knots average is ok, and you do eventually get there, 5 knots becomes 4, or 3, a lot faster than 8 knots does. A small boat will soon be bobbing aimlessly in the ocean if you don't drive it on to some extent; one delightful thing about a big boat is it just goes -- you don't have to drive it to make meaningful progress; big boats generally don't do aimless bobbing. So you have the luxury of sailing your much bigger, much faster boat easier. The same is even more true of a big boat which is still faster.
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Old 11-09-2014, 14:41   #149
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

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I think you need to add 10 or 20 feet to make this happen. Draw it, write the check, and I'll build it!
No, just have the right builder do it. ME, ME, ME!!!!
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Old 11-09-2014, 14:55   #150
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Re: The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

Okay kids. Get out the check book and interior design pencels and try “Sylvina W. Beal” – 84′ Knockabout Schooner – 1911 – $125,000 | David Jones Yacht Brokerage


It's appealing . . .
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