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Old 10-10-2018, 12:29   #121
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Re: The new Amel 50

I personally would not worry in the least about the stability of any Amel. First, they're designed by one of the best in the business for one of the best companies in the business. Second, B/D by itself tells you very little about the boat's sailing or ultimate stability. Many other factors make a huge difference: Weight distribution through the keel, weight distribution within the hull, in hull ballast including tankage, how top-heavy the boat's desk is, height and weight of the rig, aspect ratio of the rig, form stability as you mentioned, etc.

If there was any area of concern I'd have with the 50 it's the exposed rudders. I'd poke into how they're designed and how robustly they're built, how well they could handle a grounding, and the ability to easily separate them so as to steer off one if the other was jammed from damage. It doesn't wildly concern me - spade rudders can be very strong if done right - but the rudders being exposed (not behind the keel) and lacking skegs seem like the biggest risk area with this particular design.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:55   #122
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Re: The new Amel 50

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Originally Posted by gjorgensen View Post
I personally would not worry in the least about the stability of any Amel. First, they're designed by one of the best in the business for one of the best companies in the business. Second, B/D by itself tells you very little about the boat's sailing or ultimate stability. Many other factors make a huge difference: Weight distribution through the keel, weight distribution within the hull, in hull ballast including tankage, how top-heavy the boat's desk is, height and weight of the rig, aspect ratio of the rig, form stability as you mentioned, etc.

If there was any area of concern I'd have with the 50 it's the exposed rudders. I'd poke into how they're designed and how robustly they're built, how well they could handle a grounding, and the ability to easily separate them so as to steer off one if the other was jammed from damage. It doesn't wildly concern me - spade rudders can be very strong if done right - but the rudders being exposed (not behind the keel) and lacking skegs seem like the biggest risk area with this particular design.
I agree with you regarding stability.

Regarding the twin rudders, the Amel ones are in a watertight compartment. If one gets damaged, it can be isolated so that the other stays operational. In addition, they are overbuilt.

Just FYI, the new HR 57, I believe, has twin rudders. Once the stern gets past a certain width, twin rudders are almost required. Things are changing...
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Old 10-10-2018, 16:55   #123
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Re: The new Amel 50

You certainly don't have to sell me on the idea - just check out the (twin rudder) boat I own. In fact I would not have bought a 38.1 if it was single rudder because it simply could not sail as well given the hull shape. I believe the Amel 50 would similarly be a non-starter as a single rudder boat given the hull shape.

None the less, there are some additional risks associated with twin rudders. I'd be more concerned about an inability to steer than flooding. I realize Amel builds them strong and they've never been prone to rudder issues, but I'd like to know roughly what the limits are. If were able to speak with Olivier and the Amel build team my question would be something like this: Real world scenario, I get backed into a reef or ledge and find myself pounding up and down on those non-vertical, canted rudders for a short time. How much of that could they actually take? And given that a lot of such scenarios would involve one rudder only, would it still be possible to steer with the remaining rudder if one is badly jammed or damaged? The upside to having 2 rudders is redundancy after all.

Congrats on the boat. If I was taking off long range cruising the Amel 50 would be one of the top boats I'd consider, along with the 55. The tradeoffs between the 50 and 55 are intriguing and I think it's pretty interesting that they're offering two such dissimilar boats in nearly the same length.
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Old 10-10-2018, 17:58   #124
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Re: The new Amel 50

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Alden,

Thank you for the review. I spent 3 full seasons in the S. Pacific with my wife on my now sold Lagoon 450. I usually sail during the sailing season and leave the boat and return home when it's over.

I realized that certain boat features were important to me. These are (and I may have forgotten some):
- Safety
- Enclosed center cockpit
- Ease of maintenance
- No exterior teak or wood of any kind
- Ease of handling (even single-handing) in bad weather
- Comfortable interior with lots of light
- 3 staterooms and 2 heads
- Large lazarette
- High build quality

I've looked at many high end brands (monohull and catamarans) and visited their factories. The Amel company came on top for me.

Regarding the enclosed cockpit, you'll thank yourself that you have it when you're in nasty weather. I wouldn't want my wife to be exposed to rain, high wind and waves. After my first season on the L450, I had the flybridge covered and enclosed. During bad weather, that's where I was and I wanted to be somewhat comfortable and safe.

The Amel steering feeling did not bother me. No boat is perfect and this was a non issue to me. It's a cruising boat not a racing one.

Regarding stability, you'll get many internet "experts" to give you their opinion. How many boats have they designed and built? I've spent countless meetings with Amel and 3 meetings with Olivier Racoupeau (great guy) and he put my mind at ease. He's an incredible designer who has designed almost any kind of boat and he's super busy. Stability is a complex issue and you can't get a sense from just one ratio. At the end, I trust Olivier and Amel on their decisions. Both are very reputable companies and know way more than I do on this issue. Amel is a very demanding company and they don't compromise much. Ask any of Amel's suppliers, or Olivier. They (Amel) also think long and hard before they introduce a new model as they don't change models often.

By the way, Olivier designed the Garcia yachts, to name another mass produced go anywhere boat line.

After you spend some time cruising, you'll fall in love with the Amel engine room. Everything in one walk-in room! You can get to anything without having to pull half the boat apart What an incredible idea.

The Amel masts are a piece of art. They have been proven for many years and Amel keeps improving them.

Finally, the Amel 50, as any other Amel, is built like a tank. You'll hardly hear a squeek when walking around or sailing.

HR's are great boats also, maybe better in some aspects. They just did not meet all my requirements.

Good luck on your quest. I'm scheduled to take delivery of my Amel 50 in May 2019. I can't wait! I'm happy with my choice.


Wow congrats! Interesting (and not surprising to me at all) that you are going large multi back to mono. What are your reasons? They may be the ones that will keep me in a mono for life
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Old 10-10-2018, 20:25   #125
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Re: The new Amel 50

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Wow congrats! Interesting (and not surprising to me at all) that you are going large multi back to mono. What are your reasons? They may be the ones that will keep me in a mono for life
I too would be happy to read about this transition from multi-hull to mono. I think I know what you might say, ...

I watch Riley and Elayna on Sailing La Vagabonde (YouTube). Elayna experiences more seasickness on their Outremer 45 than she ever did (none) on their previous Beneteau 43. Interesting.
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Old 10-10-2018, 23:49   #126
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Re: The new Amel 50

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Originally Posted by Alden View Post
I too would be happy to read about this transition from multi-hull to mono. I think I know what you might say, ...

I watch Riley and Elayna on Sailing La Vagabonde (YouTube). Elayna experiences more seasickness on their Outremer 45 than she ever did (none) on their previous Beneteau 43. Interesting.
She is pregnant, that's normal to vomit sometimes.
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Old 11-10-2018, 04:39   #127
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Re: The new Amel 50

I got queasy inshore on an atlantic 57. Cats are a different motion which takes getting used to. Cats replace rolling and heeling with a quicker more jerky motion.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:23   #128
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Re: The new Amel 50

Our ex Lagoon 450 treated us very well. At anchor she was a perfect boat. During rough passages, the ride was jerky, abrupt and very loud (water slapping under the bridge deck). I'm guessing that most cruising cats are like that. We never felt unsafe though.

Considering that cruisers spend over 90 percent of their time at anchor, that may not be a bad compromise. But, we had to stop our S. Pacific cruising due to family reasons and the best solution was to sell our L450.

After the family issues got resolved, and since we always wanted to sail the Med, we decided to buy another boat there. In the Med the waves tend to have shorter period and be steeper than the S. Pacific ones. That's not an ideal environment for a Cat.

In addition, I wanted a better quality boat, cat or mono. I visited the Privilege Catamaran factory (Serie 5) and I was very disappointed (I'm not going to get into this). The Discovery 50 catamaran did not seem to get much love from Discovery or buyers. In addition, a 50ft catamaran is huge for 2 people, most of the time. This size was pushing my catamaran size limit.

Other mafacturers got eliminated because I wanted a cruising boat, not a racing oriented one.

I also considered other quality monohulls like Oyster, HR, Najad, Discovery, etc. They are all great boats and have their pros and cons. At the end the Amel 50 stood on top and met most of my requirements. I was hoping to like the Amel 55 more, as I could buy it used, but it felt darker and smaller compared to the 50. I also wanted 3 staterooms with the master aft. The 55 is a great boat, but since I was going to spend that kind of money, I decided to get exactly the boat that talked to me, the Amel 50.

Everyone has a different idea of the perfect boat. The Amel 50 came the closest to my perfect boat idea. In addition, the Amel factory was one of the nicest factories I visited. It makes a difference when the workers are part owners.

Again, that's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:34   #129
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Re: The new Amel 50

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In addition, the Amel factory was one of the nicest factories I visited. It makes a difference when the workers are part owners.
This makes sense, based on what I saw, though I wasn’t aware. Can you elaborate please? What are the arrangements for staff participation?

Thanks.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:49   #130
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Re: The new Amel 50

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She is pregnant, that's normal to vomit sometimes.
Hi Cat. Yes, very exciting news. And interesting times ahead for this lovely couple. But Elayna was experiencing some seasickness on their cat well before her pregnancy. I remember discussing with my wife how Elayna was seasick from prolonged exposure to seas on the beam, from starboard actually, while they were still in the Med. I postulated that first one hull then the other would react to each wave, causing a rapid tilt and counter tilt, and some slapping. The lighter displacement might contribute to faster reactions, too. That could get tiring. My only experience is with heavy displacement monos; I found the movement in big seas to be fun, fortunately.
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:17   #131
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Re: The new Amel 50

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This makes sense, based on what I saw, though I wasn’t aware. Can you elaborate please? What are the arrangements for staff participation?

Thanks.
When Henry Amel (company founder) died, he left the factory to the workers.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/...-the-amel-3978

https://www.amel.fr/en/lhistoire/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amel_Yachts

I was told by an Amel supplier that every new hire needs to be recommend and guaranteed by 2 current employees for several months. This may have changed as Amel is busier now.

Amel is not your ordinary boat factory and they don't bring new boat models in the market frequently. They prefer to perfect the models they have. That's why the 50 is exciting.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:25   #132
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Re: The new Amel 50

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Polux,

I will trust the Amel company, with their long blue water experience, and Olivier Racoupeau, with his extensive boat design experience, before I listen to someone's opinion on the internet.

You made your point. People in the industry have a different opinion. Face it. Move on. Or better yet, buy a Rassy 44. Please...
Bill Dixon Interview-

"It scares me to think that were it not for the fact that my mentor died whilst sailing his own yacht, I might never have forced myself into running my own design house.” Bill Dixon is recalling the terrible time in 1980 when his employer, Alex Primrose, was lost at sea while sailing Demon of Hamble, a 33ft Moody of his own design, 180 miles off the coast of South Carolina near Cape Hatteras. “In order to keep the business going I had to immediately take on responsibility for designing the yachts and finding new business. But I was just three years into my career. Everyone had heard of my boss, but no one even knew who I was.” Two yards, Moody and Princess, had however begun to recognise his talent. With the support of Primrose’s family and key clients, Dixon decided to acquire the studio of Angus Primrose Ltd, the firm which he went on to establish as Dixon Yacht Designs Ltd.

Dixon grew up in a boatyard and his grandfather instilled an appreciation of the fine lines of a good hull. None of his forebears ever drew a plan or built a boat from a drawing — they simply hand-carved a miniature version of what it was they wanted to create, then scaled it up to create the finished article. The traditional wooden boats they created were used for fishing and pleasure, and it was in craft such as these that he first found his love for the water — and respect for the sea. To this day he still has, and treasures, many of the original wooden carvings his family before him used as yacht designs.

A year before Primrose died, Dixon had his very own close encounter with death on the high seas — an event that was to have a major impact on the young designer. “The Fastnet is a gruelling 600-mile ocean race to Fastnet Rock off Ireland and back to England,” he explains. “In August 1979 more than 300 yachts took part but 69 failed to finish. Of those, 23 were lost or abandoned with 15 crew killed before the race was eventually called off.” Dixon had set sail as crew aboard the Sigma 37 Cheesecake with David Thomas, the yacht’s designer, and David King, MD of Marine Projects. Little did they know at the start line, that this Fastnet would become notorious. Winds developed into gale force 11 and Cheesecake was knocked down twice with King breaking his collarbone. “The seas were awful,” remembers Dixon. “It completely changed my perspective of yachts and the way they should be designed. Cheesecake was well designed for the time, but it’s only when you’ve seen first hand what the elements can do to a boat, that you can fully appreciate the dangers of poor yacht design.” That terrifying experience has stayed with Dixon ever since, and he uses the lessons he learned every day when drawing the lines of a yacht and considering her stability. It is this quality, coupled to his family background in yacht building, that helps to explain why Dixon’s work is in such great demand around the world. "


From-

http://www.thehoworths.com/wp-conten...-Interview.pdf
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:09   #133
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Re: The new Amel 50

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I agree with you regarding stability.

Regarding the twin rudders, the Amel ones are in a watertight compartment. If one gets damaged, it can be isolated so that the other stays operational. In addition, they are overbuilt.

Just FYI, the new HR 57, I believe, has twin rudders. Once the stern gets past a certain width, twin rudders are almost required. Things are changing...
What is the STIX value ? All Euro boats have that spec'd now.


http://www.blur.se/images/irc-stix-2008.pdf
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Old 11-10-2018, 13:27   #134
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Re: The new Amel 50

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What is the STIX value ? All Euro boats have that spec'd now.


http://www.blur.se/images/irc-stix-2008.pdf
But not all yards are disclosing or publishing them.

- Garcia gave me 37.5 as the STIX for their Exploration 45

- Hallberg Rassy’s website provides STIX for some yachts. HR 48 - 58; HR 412 - 47; HR 372 - 39; HR 342 - 40.1; HR 310 - 36.5; HR 55 - 66; The HR 44? The HR 57 or 340?
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Old 14-10-2018, 14:12   #135
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Re: The new Amel 50

Interestingly, the Amel 55 has disappeared from the Amel web page. I'd bet they'd still build you one if you asked with money in hand, but I find it interesting it's been otherwise discontinued. It makes me wonder if the 50 completely ate the 55's market?
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