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Old 09-06-2010, 00:41   #121
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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Seriously??? i LOVE that idea. Rip out the wheel! Didn't think it was possible.
Sure, here's a picture with the tiller lashed to the backstay. Lots more room in the cockpit.

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Old 09-06-2010, 00:47   #122
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You might want to look at one of these.

Halmatic 30 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

They are mostly in the UK, but I found one in Oz so they are out there.

They tick all my boxes, and I am an old folkboat owner too (marieholm IF)
These were high on my list at one time too. The Camper Nicholson 31 is the same boat I understand and I've seen more of them in the US. Love the rudder setup and the tiller.
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:32   #123
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The CN31 was made by Halmatic and sold by CN.
It is similar, bit the Halmatic 30 was an entirely new design by a different designer, John Sharp.
It is the same design as the Barbican 30.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:24   #124
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The CN31 was made by Halmatic and sold by CN.
It is similar, bit the Halmatic 30 was an entirely new design by a different designer, John Sharp.
It is the same design as the Barbican 30.
Thanks, that's good to know. The Barbican looks nice too.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:58   #125
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olaf: you struck the heart in me. Was thinking just yesterday morning how much I would love to have a bigger folkboat design - something with headroom. Sloop rigged. Locks into a groove. This is on mark. Nothing in USA sadly. Some nice ones in UK. Very reasonably priced too.

again why are so many of my favorite boats in UK?
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:09   #126
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Yeah, folkboats spoil you that's for sure.
I saw one for sale in Maine a couple of years ago.
Maybe you just have to start your cruise in the UK and Europe, I can think of worse places to go.
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:48   #127
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So, lets see where we are on all this SaltyMonkey shopping list thing, and bring it up to date. The need sounded pretty simple, a blue water sailer of these qualities:

24-38" 30-36 ideal
below $100k below $65K ideal
NO wooden decks.
Ketch, Sloop or Cutter. No Yawls. No gaffs. No centerboards.
Skegs and Wineglass attached rudders OK. Blade rudders not.
Full keel vs Fin - Full keel #1

Sailing alone bluewater, but occasional guests in cruising grounds. Liveaboard.
Cruising grounds: PNW, GLakes, NE, Chesapeake, Northern Europe, Bahamas, VI

We started off with a pretty good idea of what PHs we were looking for, and a pile of boats that were hard to decipher. We questioned on what was missed, compared a few common lines, and asked for any other advice.

Some education was received

- Canoe sterns and small cockpits are good for SaltyMonkey, but bad for those occasions when he has friends and family onboard.
- Travelers in the cockpit are good for SaltyMonkey, but can be dangerous for those occasions when he has friends and family onboard. They also take up space.
- Tillers are good for SaltyMonkey, but not necessarily a good option on larger boats where little SaltyMonkey may need the leverage of mechanics. Wheels on the other hand don't give SaltyMonkey the touchy feely thing, and can get in the way for those occasions when he has friends and family onboard.
- SaltyMonkey came to conclusion that unless a boat on market as good characteristics or price, its probably best to look locally for boats from the list rather than run all over the country, or even to places that he has access to remotely. Peripheral costs add expenses, waste time, and don't add much to the process. and anyway, its a bit off market to look in the middle of the summer since selections are few.
- SaltyMonkey learned he liked sloops more than he liked cutters and ketches. He also waned on ketches since he has a hard time managing more than two things at a time. Cutters, although classically good for sailing, has a downside in that SaltyMonkey might loose his legs to a club boom, or fall overboard on the bowsprit.
- SaltyMonkey open up his heart (a little) to more modern Blade and Bulb designs in an effort to go faster and get a newer boat. He still is a bit skitty about the hot tub quality but is willing to look at a few. The biggest question that came to his mind was "Why not get a newer boat for the same price as an old shoe and beef it up a bit for weather?" But practically, light displacement boats like these do not lie to a sea anchor very well in rough conditions, and their fin/bulb keels can sometimes get snagged in the rode.
- SaltyMonkey was exposed to a whole new world of boatbuilding by talking to his steel owning friends in another thread. He learn about Brent "Origami" Swain and Thomas Colvin and George Buehler (loved his old woody book). SaltyMonkey likes the idea of taking classes in TIG, MIG, and torch welding. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find good steel boats where he is.
- SaltyMonkey learned that he can perhaps handle a larger boat by himself, maybe up to 42 feet. In some cases for the price of a smaller boat you can get a much larger boat for your money. But practically, that much boat would sit empty most of the time, and also be more costly to maintain. If things went south in weather, he also might have difficulty with large sails if the roller goes out.
- SaltyMonkey likes the idea of changing plans and entering a 45' Spade and Bulb in the TransPac next year.
- SaltyMonkey thinks british boats are the cats pajamas. Meow.
- SaltyMonkeys ideal boat would probably be a steel 36-42 ft folkboat with sloop or cutter rig, with inside steering, a rear cabin, three roller reefing head sails (incl storm jib), roller in-boom main with 12 oz cloth at top, bow and stern thrusters for docking.

however, SaltyMonkeys work list starts with…

- Tayana 37
- Cape Dory 36
- HC 33
- Westsail 32
- Ingrid 38
- Alajeula 33
- Young Sun 35
- Corbin 39
- Morgan 382, 383, 384

Some new ones popped backed into the list, available locally, and in other conversations to consider:

- Aries/Roughrider 32
- Bristol 40
- Rafiki 35
- Fast Passage 39
- Islander 36 (maybe - cheap and available. need work though)
- Island Packet 35, 38 (there are some avail)
- Cascade 36
- Southern Cross 35, 39
- Morgan OI 41 Classic, OI 416
- Vancouver 36
- Seawind 30
- Cabo Rico 36
- Valiant 35
- Vineyard Vixen 34
- Scanmar 35
- Sabre 34
- Tartan 37, 41

And my inside steering in order of liking:

- Fisher 30
- Gulf 32
- LM 30

We'll keep these on the sides to look at:

- Cape Dory 33, 31, 30, 36

In the outlier department:

- Hunter Cherubini 37, 35.5, 33, 32 vision, 31.
- Catalina 34 MK II, 320

In the Beneteau, just to keep the AAA thrill seekers off my back. Have to look at whats available locally and decide.

- Beneteau Oceanis 423
- Beneteau First 42S7
- Beneteau Ooeanis 42
- Beneteau Oceanis 411
- Beneteau First 40.7
- Beneteau First 38
- Beneteau Oceanis 370
- Beneteau 36s7
- Beneteau 35

...And any steel boats he thinks are worth looking at.
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:12   #128
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I have been watching your thread closely and I am convinced that we are both looking for the same boat. Your list is nearly identical to mine and even more so since you added Bristol 40 into your consideration. Probably the prettiest boat listed but I have not been able to determine its suitability for blue water cruising.

Another boat on my list you do not have is the Down East 38. I went to look at one a few weeks ago and it is built solid and I really like the wide open cockpit.

Anyway, keep up the good work, your making it very easy for me!
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Old 09-06-2010, 13:06   #129
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Downeaster 32 is on my off list. It didn't score well. I guess I didn't consider the 38 because I wasn't looking for boats over 34-36. That's changed a bit.
The 38 scores very well 7/10 on my rankings.

Forgot to add in the PSC's 27, 31, 34, 37. Pricey per foot but always wanted one.
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Old 09-06-2010, 13:22   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
So, lets see where we are on all this SaltyMonkey shopping list thing, and bring it up to date. The need sounded pretty simple, a blue water sailer of these qualities:

24-38" 30-36 ideal
below $100k below $65K ideal
NO wooden decks.
Ketch, Sloop or Cutter. No Yawls. No gaffs. No centerboards.
Skegs and Wineglass attached rudders OK. Blade rudders not.
Full keel vs Fin - Full keel #1

Sailing alone bluewater, but occasional guests in cruising grounds. Liveaboard.
Cruising grounds: PNW, GLakes, NE, Chesapeake, Northern Europe, Bahamas, VI

We started off with a pretty good idea of what PHs we were looking for, and a pile of boats that were hard to decipher. We questioned on what was missed, compared a few common lines, and asked for any other advice.

Some education was received

- Canoe sterns and small cockpits are good for SaltyMonkey, but bad for those occasions when he has friends and family onboard.
- Travelers in the cockpit are good for SaltyMonkey, but can be dangerous for those occasions when he has friends and family onboard. They also take up space.
- Tillers are good for SaltyMonkey, but not necessarily a good option on larger boats where little SaltyMonkey may need the leverage of mechanics. Wheels on the other hand don't give SaltyMonkey the touchy feely thing, and can get in the way for those occasions when he has friends and family onboard.
- SaltyMonkey came to conclusion that unless a boat on market as good characteristics or price, its probably best to look locally for boats from the list rather than run all over the country, or even to places that he has access to remotely. Peripheral costs add expenses, waste time, and don't add much to the process. and anyway, its a bit off market to look in the middle of the summer since selections are few.
- SaltyMonkey learned he liked sloops more than he liked cutters and ketches. He also waned on ketches since he has a hard time managing more than two things at a time. Cutters, although classically good for sailing, has a downside in that SaltyMonkey might loose his legs to a club boom, or fall overboard on the bowsprit.
- SaltyMonkey open up his heart (a little) to more modern Blade and Bulb designs in an effort to go faster and get a newer boat. He still is a bit skitty about the hot tub quality but is willing to look at a few. The biggest question that came to his mind was "Why not get a newer boat for the same price as an old shoe and beef it up a bit for weather?" But practically, light displacement boats like these do not lie to a sea anchor very well in rough conditions, and their fin/bulb keels can sometimes get snagged in the rode.
- SaltyMonkey was exposed to a whole new world of boatbuilding by talking to his steel owning friends in another thread. He learn about Brent "Origami" Swain and Thomas Colvin and George Buehler (loved his old woody book). SaltyMonkey likes the idea of taking classes in TIG, MIG, and torch welding. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find good steel boats where he is.
- SaltyMonkey learned that he can perhaps handle a larger boat by himself, maybe up to 42 feet. In some cases for the price of a smaller boat you can get a much larger boat for your money. But practically, that much boat would sit empty most of the time, and also be more costly to maintain. If things went south in weather, he also might have difficulty with large sails if the roller goes out.
- SaltyMonkey likes the idea of changing plans and entering a 45' Spade and Bulb in the TransPac next year.
- SaltyMonkey thinks british boats are the cats pajamas. Meow.
- SaltyMonkeys ideal boat would probably be a steel 36-42 ft folkboat with sloop or cutter rig, with inside steering, a rear cabin, three roller reefing head sails (incl storm jib), roller in-boom main with 12 oz cloth at top, bow and stern thrusters for docking.

however, SaltyMonkeys work list starts with…

- Tayana 37
- Cape Dory 36
- HC 33
- Westsail 32
- Ingrid 38
- Alajeula 33
- Young Sun 35
- Corbin 39
- Morgan 382, 383, 384

Some new ones popped backed into the list, available locally, and in other conversations to consider:

- Aries/Roughrider 32
- Bristol 40
- Rafiki 35
- Fast Passage 39
- Islander 36 (maybe - cheap and available. need work though)
- Island Packet 35, 38 (there are some avail)
- Cascade 36
- Southern Cross 35, 39
- Morgan OI 41 Classic, OI 416
- Vancouver 36
- Seawind 30
- Cabo Rico 36
- Valiant 35
- Vineyard Vixen 34
- Scanmar 35
- Sabre 34
- Tartan 37, 41

And my inside steering in order of liking:

- Fisher 30
- Gulf 32
- LM 30

We'll keep these on the sides to look at:

- Cape Dory 33, 31, 30, 36

In the outlier department:

- Hunter Cherubini 37, 35.5, 33, 32 vision, 31.
- Catalina 34 MK II, 320

In the Beneteau, just to keep the AAA thrill seekers off my back. Have to look at whats available locally and decide.

- Beneteau Oceanis 423
- Beneteau First 42S7
- Beneteau Ooeanis 42
- Beneteau Oceanis 411
- Beneteau First 40.7
- Beneteau First 38
- Beneteau Oceanis 370
- Beneteau 36s7
- Beneteau 35

...And any steel boats he thinks are worth looking at.
Thank you, Saline Monkey, for lots of voyeuristic pleasure, which you have given a great number of us in your boat search. We wish you well and are waiting with bated breath on your final choice.

BTW, PFLA -- that is, Possible Flawed Logic Alert - cutters do not require or imply either bowsprits or booms. Check again. That is not a reason for rejecting them. Cutter #1, Ketch #2, Sloop only #3, in this sailor's ranking of rig types. And that is assuming modern underbody type. If you are going to have any kind of compromised underbody, then Ketch takes the #1 spot since you cease to give up anything to single-stick rigs.
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Old 09-06-2010, 13:51   #131
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Yes Duckhead, but in terms of SaltyMonkey solo sailing, NOT performance...Sloop, Cutter, Ketch. Other solo types disagree and go for alternate orders including Ketch being #1 spot due to easier to adjust amount of sail/easier to balance; extra mast. SaltyMonkey likes sloops for simplicity. No salinity there.
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Old 09-06-2010, 14:13   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Ok, some questions about my TO BUY list:

Parameters:

24-38" 30-36 ideal
below $100k below $65K ideal
NO wooden decks.
Ketch, Sloop or Cutter. No Yawls. No gaffs. No centerboards.
Skegs and Wineglass attached rudders OK. Blade rudders not.
Full keel vs Fin - Full keel #1
I would second reconsidering the "no centerboards" as well. We have a Tartan 37 w/centerboard. I never considered a centerboard in the beginning but after spending time in the ICW and now Florida, we love it. We can pull it up and get into bays with shallow openings (we draw 4ft 4 with the board up) without waiting for high tide. And a lot of the marinas we would have had to pass up if we'd had anything deeper than 5 ft.

Centerboard will allow you many more options in the Bahamas!
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Old 09-06-2010, 14:40   #133
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Sea Bungalow - I would consider a CB, a shoal draft, wing keel, tri or cat, bilge or any number of other "shallow" draft if Bahama's and south was my primary cruising joy and most of my sailing was going to be done there. Hell even a catboat like rig such as a Nonsuch. But, I'd rather have some full keel boat since south is more a secondary want than a dream.
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Old 09-06-2010, 14:45   #134
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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Yes Duckhead, but in terms of SaltyMonkey solo sailing, NOT performance...Sloop, Cutter, Ketch. Other solo types disagree and go for alternate orders including Ketch being #1 spot due to easier to adjust amount of sail/easier to balance; extra mast. SaltyMonkey likes sloops for simplicity. No salinity there.
Well, I am a fan of performance (speed is life) as an absolute virtue, but I appreciate other values as well.

I like ketches a whole lot and absolutely understand that many sailors may put them up as #1. I almost bought a ketch myself.

One ketch guy on this board, Nick from Holland, who drives a Sundeer 64 ketch, makes the point that you give up more performance with in-mast furling, than you do with two sticks, so you might as well have the two sticks and make up for it with fully battened mains (each of them much smaller and easier to handle). It's a damned good point, to tell the truth.

But a sloop does not amount to simplicity, in my humble opinion. It is not simple, but on the contrary, more complicated (riskier, and more work) to adapt the monolithic sloop sail plan to various conditions at sea. A cutter is next simplest in that regard, and a double-headed ketch is the most sublimely simple of all (remember ketch also gets the center of effort of the sail plan DOWN, with shorter masts).

And here you have the value of flexibility and adapability of the sail plan in direct tension with the value of performance, since sloop is best of all and ketch worst for performance, but the order reversed where the other value is concerned.

Well, of course you pays your money and takes your choice. But I would think sloop would be the least salty-monkyish of all, of the various rig types.
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Old 09-06-2010, 15:31   #135
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Dockhead. There was a fashion trend where sloops were better at sailing solo, then there was a trend where cutter rigs were better (I guess that whole 80's thing), then it was I think sloops again, then somewhere ketches became the craze. Somewhere in there junks were thought to hold sway. I guess its what you are used to and comfortable with. I realize the benefits of all of them, and limitations. I just don't want that many sails and lines to deal with, especially in closed spaces. That's simple. I don't know what you mean by safety considering you have 2 stays on front - one on the extended bow. With sloop, just add in a removable forestay for balance or a small jib - ready to go. Oh, and by the way the dockmasters will charge you for that bowsprit or extension on the cutter - and don't tell me it aint there. Everyone I ever saw had one.

Remember its also availability too. When I look on market, there aren't that many sloopish rigs in the monkey boat list.

Ideal boat rig: 3 roller furlers ( genny, 100%, storm)

oops...here's my boat!

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