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Old 30-05-2010, 11:28   #31
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Well, IMHO SaltyMonkey should be looking for a good Tayana ketch without teak decks. That boat has tons of space, will go anywhere and balances very well with just jib and jigger. In his book on design, Perry says he prefers the Tayana ketch to the cutter.

The Pacific Seacrafts are nice, but I wouldn't want to live on the 31. A 34 would be good but it's hard to find those for under 100k.

As for "boat show" boats, be sure to check out the new Beneteaus and see if you can find a handhold anywhere in the main cabin lol.
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Old 30-05-2010, 11:54   #32
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OK. Seriously:

So the MV looks a reformulated SA/DISPL. So you compare same factors twice and then comare the comparisons ...

BTW Calling a Scanmar a coastal boat ... well, if side by side with a HCH or Baba then probably yes. Otherwise they are OK - well ballasted, well designed and well behaved. Built quality - no idea, but if they are Swedish built I would expect good to very good.

And re the 'speed potential' of a design (as defined by the ability of a boat to reach the higher ranges of her hull speed easily), well, I have seen countless examples of light and well canvassed craft beating cruisers hands down - on the flat waters of the harbour and even when the former were sailed by mediocre skippers (vs. quite decent cruisers in the other boats). And believe me or not, at the end of a longish offshore passage the 'slower' cruisers came in first. Why? Maybe a mix of the ability of the cruising design to keep up good pace in the chop, without kites, and 'unattended' seasoned with their skipper ability to drive their houses at a good pace in all kinds of weather.

In any case. From my (cruising) perspective, it is great to have a boat that will easily sail at a high percentage of her potential rather than a super fast design that needs six crew on the rail and constant sail changes.

b.
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Old 30-05-2010, 18:23   #33
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SaltyMonkey is indeed stubborn about all of his boat priorities and his desire to discuss them in an "armchair sailor" fashion (insulting as that comment was to me) with all of you. He is not persuaded that he should just get a few local boats and go look at them. If that was the case SaltyMonkey could put on a clean pair of underwear and go look at two nice Ingrid 38's in his area both offered at a reasonable price (he recently learned Ingrids were sometimes homebrewed so he thinks these are cheap because they were built years ago w cement/iron ballast and they may indeed suck). Been there; done that. What his goal was by these posts was to become more educated - not only on the boats, but his own goals/needs...and learn from others who are perhaps more experienced but not as good looking as SaltyMonkey. Everyone here has contributed to that. More than I imagined coming into this. Thank you all. You're the best. If I ever get another damn boat again I will make you all spaghetti. Bring your own wine. I'm on sailor duty 24/7.

SaltyMonkey likes his ratios and proportions - primarily because he studied small craft design when he was a wee lad and because it's helpful to narrow down a list to a select few, and to weed out the "armchair" sailor suggestions such as oh...Hunter, Cal, and Catalina, and um....Beneteau. He also likes HO 249 but thinks celestial navigation is a lie since in all his sailing experiences he never ever once got a clear horizon for a decent fix in the NE Atlantic. What am I saying? Its just numbers man...but it help to converge on an error even if its 10-20 miles out of 2,100.

Tayana Ketch - yes it's in my head and my list thank you. You have reaffirmed my love for this boat. I also love the Ingrid 38, and the HC 33 which I wasn't clear about. I have yet to see a woodless deck on a Westsail, but if I did I would love that one too I'm convinced. I would love a Dreadnaught if I saw one. I ponder the Cape Dory 36, but I suppose I could date one too. I love boats. Older boats. PS I'm not afraid of a few changes to dress up a boat for sea, I just don't want to be locked down to doing that with my wallet and not going sailing. I'm tired of hanging around yard sailors who spend all their time putting in AC units and crap.

Adlard Coles' stormy book is convincing me that perhaps skegs are not safe and those rudders break off making a nice man hole in the center of your boat maybe worse than a blade...and that deep full keels (ahh those wineglass hulls) and medium sized beam are best. They also steer better. (although I like the Contessa 32 which is a submarine). Hence, I should probably not look at PSC's

Moreover, wide eyed, I am also becoming convinced that roller reefing is the devil, and I should return to my favorite reefing headsails instead. Removing a headsail off a roller in large winds could be suicide for SaltyMonkey. Mast reefing mains are also the devil. For both, all that top heaviness reduces stability around 30% in a gale and creates undo strains on the stays. Throw in a storm jib and tri-sail in the middle of the mast and the whole rig may come down. Not a good thing for SaltyMonkey by far. Oh my no!

Now, If I could create a slab reefing system without hooks for both sails that could be run from the cockpit...and no club boom on the head....triple reef points + heavier sailcloth upstairs....hmmm simple...more tea for me.

Yes I like ketches. You get an extra mast for free as long as you don't have them connected. You dont need no stinkin radar mast that looks like an erection. But, after two days of little sleep alone at sea, I cannot count to more than 2 sails. A ketch with 3, or a ketch/cutter with 4 and I may loose my mind permanently and curl up in the cockpit crying "why me again oh why why why".

Cutter rigs - OK, well, I am not convinced I should be out on any damn bowsprits removing headsails off tracks or roller reefers....

Which brings me back to sloop again with a removable forestay and my SaltyMonkey reefing system.

But I haven't given up on the ketch...just narrowing options...no no that ketch has plenty of good stuff in it, I just haven't seen one I fell in love with or sailed. Well, maybe the Fisher 30 which is a ketch. I love that boat. I don't know why. The cockpit is useless which may be a good thing since it floods. I love that high gunwale, banana deck. Deckhouse. Slanted windows.

Then there is size...

A 36-38 ft boat...I dunno man. Bigger everything. Bigger breaks from my 145 lb frame. Then there are upkeep expenses and what I can manage myself in maintenance labour. Maybe practically 30-34? More pondering.

PSC's - I think the "older" 31 may be the better buy and its a wineglass. 34's do exist under 100k. 27 Orion MK II - like the interior but small. But skegs skegs all...

The main list narrows:

Tayana 37
Cape Dory 36
HC 33
Westsail 32
Ingrid 38
Alajeula 33

And my inside steering in order of liking:

Fisher 30
Gulf 32
LM 30


We'll keep these on the sides to look at., since I may be surprised:

Cape Dory 33, 31, 30
Morgan 382, 383, 384

Thats quite a progression from where we started.

You have to realize these days I'm re-evalating everything I "think" I know about sailing...everything...even the knots I use. Even the bowline isn't safe from my squinting eyes - it's a weak knot and can come untied in a pinch. Sheet bends and Carrick bends are no good. Given the stronger overhand bends - the Zeppelin, the Ashley, the Alpine Butterfly, and the Hunter...only the Alpine is easy to tie and difficult to get wrong. When you are stressed or sleepless you want simplicity. Moreover, the Alpine can be used to tie one or more loops anywhere on the line, in a very very easy fashion. So, learning the Alpine with it's universal usages makes things simpler and stronger. Same with hitches - rolling hitch, fisherman hitch, clove hitch etc. Use an Adjustable Grip Hitch.

Thoughts come; thoughts go. I progress and talk too much...but its useful.

But thank you all for your opinions.

BTW, yes those slower boats probably sail better because the skippers know that when you are getting helm it's time to reef or let things out. The racers just love to heel and they never learned balance is the key to speed not sail area (unless downwind)...
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Old 30-05-2010, 19:42   #34
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Finding a boat is like finding a woman. You can visit all of the dating sites and set your ideal specifications: height, weight, hair color and all the rest, but at some point you have to meet the girl in person. And either the chemistry is there, or it isn't.
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Old 30-05-2010, 19:43   #35
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Well, I've also learned a lot here. Mainly it seems that a Monkey's gotta do what a Monkey's gotta do. Have you been entertaining Capt'n Morgan this evening perhaps? Tell him we miss him here.

No offense intended, the entertainment value here is extremely high.
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Old 30-05-2010, 20:57   #36
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Finding a boat is like finding a woman. You can visit all of the dating sites and set your ideal specifications: height, weight, hair color and all the rest, but at some point you have to meet the girl in person. And either the chemistry is there, or it isn't.
Curmudgeon: maybe thats why I'm still a single lad. I want to love and take care of them all. Ex girlfriends included.

ho! look I found another three walking to the 7-11 for rum!

Allied Mistress 39 - ok the interior is "interesting" but the numbers suck.

Pan Oceanic 38 - Nice boat and cheap. great numbers. inside steering. but damn wooden decks.

Fast Passage 39 - good numbers; lovely interior.

Naw...all too damn big for SaltyMonkey.
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Old 31-05-2010, 07:01   #37
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You may be single now, but you are on the road to matrimony. That's what happens when you buy a boat, epecially one you will live on.
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Old 31-05-2010, 09:09   #38
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That's why you have to ponder and go reeeeaaaly reeeeeealy slow.

Ok I ran into a pair of Aires 32's on my way to breakfast this morning. Low spec numbers and not any space for gear, but added to the list.
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Old 31-05-2010, 10:59   #39
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S&S 34 (ya, think?), Bayfield 36.
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Old 31-05-2010, 11:23   #40
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A Pearson 365 is another story - I like this boat a lot, but the interior is very poorly laid out given the size of the boat. It is a great interior, just I can easily imagine an even better one in the same size of a boat.

NOw Cape Dory 36 I have never seen a ketch but I know they exist. Probably a nice balance then between the CD30 ketch and the Pearson.

The Pearson is shallower and will give you access to some sweet spots. But it is not very efficient upwind. CD 36 has a tad longish overhangs - pretty but not really required in an ocean boat.



b.
I can give some information on the Pearson 365, having about 10 years experience cruising one.

* It's built like a brick outhouse, immensely strong and stable. Very seakindly for its size too.

* Interior is not "poorly laid out". It is laid out with strong emphasis on utility and deck storage. It has more deck storage than my present boat; it was designed before roller furling and has lockers for a whole gaggle of sails. Therefore there is no passenger space at all aft of the companionway. You only have a fairly tight v-berth and the main saloon. But the main saloon as got a nice pull-out double berth and an excellent nav table. The galley is fine. The head has a full separate stand-up shower stall. So all in all, I would say the interior is just fine, if you don't need more space than that.

* Very poor sailing performance. The long keel and shallow draft kills its performance upwind. Fine for tradewinds, though.

* Flip side of shallow draft is great access to areas inaccesible to other boats. Rudder and propellor well protected, too.

* Poor engine access. The engine itself is good (40hp Westerbeke) but access is a nightmare. The drive is through a v-drive and God help you if something goes wrong with it at sea.

* Very nice cockpit, dry and comfortable.

* Very cramped decks (I'm used to bigger boats now; sorry).

* Very high quality build and finish for the money.

* Did I mention superb nav table? One of the best. Side facing and right next to the companionway so you can talk to the helmsman without shouting. Better than most nav tables on much bigger boats.


So all in all -- a very good choice if you plan to sail with no more than say three people on board, maybe four for shorter periods, although there are bunks for five including the pilot berth. And if keen upwind performance is not important to you.

I much prefer our current boat which sails fast upwind, because we can sail 90% of the time rather than motoring. But with the Pearson we just figured on motoring most of the time and sailing just whenever there happened to be a favorable wind. That's not so bad; the Westerbeke put-put-putting along at 1900rpm, making a pleasant sound, using hardly any fuel.

But if you do care about sailing performance -- run away!
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Old 31-05-2010, 12:49   #41
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I can give some information on the Pearson 365, having about 10 years experience cruising one.

* Very poor sailing performance. The long keel and shallow draft kills its performance upwind. Fine for tradewinds, though.
Yup my fears exactly with a centerboard that rattles or falls out.

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* Poor engine access. The engine itself is good (40hp Westerbeke) but access is a nightmare. The drive is through a v-drive and God help you if something goes wrong with it at sea.
I was wondering about this strange arrangement. I thought it might be a good thing because you can align the shaft/engine better. Thanks for clarifying.

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* Did I mention superb nav table? One of the best. Side facing and right next to the companionway so you can talk to the helmsman without shouting. Better than most nav tables on much bigger boats.
Nav table important to me. I actually wish it was away from the cockpit so it could remain dry.

Made the choice to pass on Pearson. Think the Morris or the Cape Dory may be better for me.

Thanks for your feedback on this boat!!!
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:12   #42
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S&S 34 (ya, think?), Bayfield 36.
Bayfield 36 - reasonably good score 6/10 not sure why it was skipped on the Mahina list. Not a fan of clipper bows. I have an urge to get a parrot.

S&S 34 - Mixed builders WW so you never know what you are getting. 5/10. None I can find on market. hmmm not sure why it was skipped on the Mahina list either.

Thanks for the suggestions!
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:37   #43
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I also love the look of the Fisher 30

Dunno if you have been onboard one? but not spacious down below. I also (vaguely!) recall that the masts came in different sizes - but any of them not meant to be exactly nimble under sail - surprised I didn't buy one
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:37   #44
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Re barnie´s comment on Pearson 365 poor lay-out. I am sorry I was not clear enough - I only meant the interior layout being cramped given the 365 length. The deck layout is, off course, OK and I am glad the owner above corrected my error!

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Old 31-05-2010, 13:58   #45
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Yup my fears exactly with a centerboard that rattles or falls out.



I was wondering about this strange arrangement. I thought it might be a good thing because you can align the shaft/engine better. Thanks for clarifying.



Nav table important to me. I actually wish it was away from the cockpit so it could remain dry.

Made the choice to pass on Pearson. Think the Morris or the Cape Dory may be better for me.

Thanks for your feedback on this boat!!!

Keep in mind that many of the boats you're thinking about will be even worse than the Pearson upwind. The Pearson has a "long fin keel", but at least it has a cutaway forefoot.

The Cape Dory -- that's a 19th century style full-keeler. Huge wetted area, very hard to drive (need proportionately more sail up), very poor upwind, poor in light wind. It makes an odd bedfellow to a Morris. If you can find a Morris in your budget, don't even think twice about -- just do it.

I think you should also think twice (three times, if necessary to dispell any foolishness) about rejecting roller furling. Roller furling mainsails have many disadvantages, but roller furling headsails are the best things since sliced bread. You would have to have a powerful, starry-eyed, irrational attraction to hank-ons as toys to give up the extremely great advantages (safety and performance both) of infinite and instantaneous reefing from the cockpit. There was a good thread on this recently you would do well to dig up with the search function. To get your flexibility of sail plan you just need a cutter rig (best for offshore) or at least some kind of inner forestay.
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