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Old 13-06-2010, 10:02   #136
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SaltyMonkey has a boat report back.

Looked at a few yesterday - just some feedback for the record:

* a glassed decked Tayana 37. Over my current price range unfortunately. Thought I might swing it but after spreadsheeting last evening might have to pass. Might be a tad bit overwhelming to solo. Just a gut feeling it was on the line of trouble for me. Lot's of space underground - negative there is feels a bit lonely by oneself; positive there is three people don't get in each others way. Solid. Very safe. Galley cramped but manageable. Ondeck - cockpit just about right for three people. A third may be difficult. Using mallet, found de-lamination issues were larger than reported on side-decks. Didn't check for moisture. Didn't check entire deck. Good suggestion to reconsider from posts above. Thanks Curmudgeon.

* Islander 36 - first time on one believe it or not. Must be my California sailing baptism. This one was pretty standard. Good oversize engine on Islanders out there. Cockpit better than expected - right size. Still concerned about low floor on cockpit entrance to cabin. Galley is parallel to starboard - not U shaped; little space. CNG stove. Chart table standup to port. Nice un-cluttered fore-deck space. Very large sail locker. Easy to get to fuel tank. Reputation as a great sailer, but unsure about offwind fishtailing. Not sure about keel rudder design / heaveto capability. Overall, think I would like this boat as a sailer in mid-lat cruising, not sure about cabin and higher off-shore sailing. Heart did pitter patter a bit which is good.

* Morgan - another morgan this weekend; better than last weekend. Alcohol stove - no good for me. Almost died once from one. One thing I noticed this weekend was hatch on foredeck along with anchor well. Takes up space, and personally not secure about hatch flush on the deck. Never liked anchor wells. Fuel tank in bilge would be difficult to remove. Size is just about right. Still like this design. Heard they are lousy downwind.

Had some additional weird experiences calling around. In one, broker said the designer/owner lived in PNW and made boats for a living. Never heard of him so checked around. Turned out he always lived here and sold the boat 2 months ago at a lower price. Think the boat is back on market and either I am getting a story or its confused, or just being Shanghai'd and strapped. IN any case, suspicions about 2 month turnaround @ higher price. Another boat, the guy is selling after only owning it a year. Says he's moving. Send's me a survey which he tries to pass off as being an intensive. Turns out its just a 4 page insurance listing. Surveyor publicly says he is SAM associate; but not on SAM list now. Instinctively - pass on both.

Times never change. Choose your brokers carefully. If you are not connected to the local sailing community because you have been out of it for a while - seeing as many boats as you can, you'll get a good feeling of who is good or bad out there. As for buying directly from owners, getting direct historical knowledge from owners may not be worth it. Coming to the conclusion once again that they either play games, lie, underrate repairs, overrate/value their boats for the market, get emotional about loss and cannot sell, get emotional and don't listen when you find something wrong with their "customization", or just are lousy salespeople. Brokers do have their purpose, so find a few and stick to em. And, unless the boat is a dream candidate, stick to working the local market to save time, money, and aggravation.
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Old 13-06-2010, 11:27   #137
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SaltyMonkey has a boat report back.


Times never change. Choose your brokers carefully. If you are not connected to the local sailing community because you have been out of it for a while - seeing as many boats as you can, you'll get a good feeling of who is good or bad out there. As for buying directly from owners, getting direct historical knowledge from owners may not be worth it. Coming to the conclusion once again that they either play games, lie, underrate repairs, overrate/value their boats for the market, get emotional about loss and cannot sell, get emotional and don't listen when you find something wrong with their "customization", or just are lousy salespeople. Brokers do have their purpose, so find a few and stick to em. And, unless the boat is a dream candidate, stick to working the local market to save time, money, and aggravation.
Or build your own, You know you want to monkey
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Old 13-06-2010, 12:12   #138
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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Dockhead. There was a fashion trend where sloops were better at sailing solo, then there was a trend where cutter rigs were better (I guess that whole 80's thing), then it was I think sloops again, then somewhere ketches became the craze. Somewhere in there junks were thought to hold sway. I guess its what you are used to and comfortable with. I realize the benefits of all of them, and limitations. I just don't want that many sails and lines to deal with, especially in closed spaces. That's simple. I don't know what you mean by safety considering you have 2 stays on front - one on the extended bow. With sloop, just add in a removable forestay for balance or a small jib - ready to go. Oh, and by the way the dockmasters will charge you for that bowsprit or extension on the cutter - and don't tell me it aint there. Everyone I ever saw had one.

Remember its also availability too. When I look on market, there aren't that many sloopish rigs in the monkey boat list.

Ideal boat rig: 3 roller furlers ( genny, 100%, storm)

Well, a sloop with a removeable inner forestay will give you the headsail you need for heavy weather, so that's ok, although it is somewhat of a hassle and some danger rigging it in rough weather (when you really want to stay off the foredeck).

Advantage of a cutter is your storm jib is always rigged and ready, and if it's on a roller furler it's a dead snap. If it's self-tacking like ours it's really the t*ts, because when you are rigged for storm, your whole rig becomes self-tacking reducing the stress and workload further.

Also a staysail on a cutter is more than a storm jib; it also adds a lot of drive when reaching, and allows you to use a higher cut jib up front, which is easier to trim (sheeting angles) and tacks better.

You keep insisting that cutters have bowsprits -- well, probably you're right, when you talk about real cutters in the classical sense, which have masts further aft than sloops, and smaller mainsails. Modern cutters are not like that. The are actually double-headed sloops, with the mast in about the same position and the same type of mainsail.

Look ma, no bowsprit!

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I guessing you know all that pretty well, and are just testing the assembled company for their knowledge of nautical terms.



Concerning safety -- more and smaller sails are safer than fewer and bigger ones; that's all I meant. It reduces the forces involved, and gives you a better chance of having the right amount of sail up for the conditions.


are all three drawing?
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Old 13-06-2010, 13:26   #139
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Damn Haiden! You are a mind reader! This morning I was driving around feeling a bit down and thinking "Man, what would it take to find some NW boatbuilder types to help build what I want and manage the whole process without being nickel and dimed or taken for a ride...some Swain 33-36 PH or sloop?"

Can't wait to start the MIG welding class.
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Old 13-06-2010, 13:38   #140
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Cutter rig points higher. Bowsprit helps in that regard. Sloops with double headsails have been around for years. At one time I wanted to install triangles on headstays and have pairs for each headsail. Never heard a boat that successfully accomplished this.

Sprits - too much boat to walk and watch @ 37' for me - just coming into a dock for me is difficult. If you have to go up n weather, the momentum there up and down in waves is stronger and risky more so in larger boat.

As for my next sloop, plan is and still is to rig three rollers on it - 110% or 130%, Jib + additional 110% change, Storm. I'm breaking my tradition, but my next boat is going to be larger, and I'm much weaker than I used to be.

Main - well, 3 points + higher oz. on last reef. If I have money - in-boom furler. Trisail track - difficult to install.
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Old 13-06-2010, 14:22   #141
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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Cutter rig points higher. Bowsprit helps in that regard. Sloops with double headsails have been around for years. At one time I wanted to install triangles on headstays and have pairs for each headsail. Never heard a boat that successfully accomplished this.

Sprits - too much boat to walk and watch @ 37' for me - just coming into a dock for me is difficult. If you have to go up n weather, the momentum there up and down in waves is stronger and risky more so in larger boat.

As for my next sloop, plan is and still is to rig three rollers on it - 110% or 130%, Jib + additional 110% change, Storm. I'm breaking my tradition, but my next boat is going to be larger, and I'm much weaker than I used to be.

Main - well, 3 points + higher oz. on last reef. If I have money - in-boom furler. Trisail track - difficult to install.
Sounds like you're on the right track.

Two rollers close to each other is good although can be tricky to tack the foreward-most jib in the narrow slot. Better probably the "Solent rig", which has the second roller with its foot about were a cutter's regular inner forestay would be, but the head up at the masthead. This eliminates the need for running backstays, which is one of the drawbacks of cutters.

But a regular, conventional inner forestay the head of which is not at the masthead has a couple of big advantages: you can then use the staysail together with the regular jib, and there are situations where this is good. Secondly: that staysail will be a better storm saill, because the geometry is better -- center of effort down and back.
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Old 13-06-2010, 14:43   #142
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Dockhead - good point.

Ideally - but may not be possible - is what I envision - a Solent rig + extra stay for a storm...all rollers. The storm may be a spitfire or cut a bit differently from normal for balance since its not quite 2/3's up. Crowded? Yes, but I'll live with it.

Otherwise, "smaller" cutter boat - <= 30 ft + storm...hmmmm

God I'm lazy...
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Old 13-06-2010, 15:03   #143
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Dockhead - good point.

Ideally - but may not be possible - is what I envision - a Solent rig + extra stay for a storm...all rollers. The storm may be a spitfire or cut a bit differently from normal for balance since its not quite 2/3's up. Crowded? Yes, but I'll live with it.

Otherwise, "smaller" cutter boat - <= 30 ft + storm...hmmmm

God I'm lazy...
Sounds like a plan! I think you won't mind the crowdedness. Especially not in a storm.

Don't forget running backs in case you have any load-carrying stay below the masthead.
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Old 13-06-2010, 16:07   #144
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Don't forget running backs in case you have any load-carrying stay below the masthead.
Well, there is a thought I need to adjust to. Can't just up the backstay a bit, or have duos - port and starboard at the tail? Or do we need removable backstays further up a bit, and lower down the mast on tangs?
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Old 14-06-2010, 14:11   #145
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Smile monkey boat list

Back in '80 I was helping deliver a Westsail 28 from Annapolis to NY. Going down the Delaware Bay we hobby horsed like nothing I've experienced before or since. We were motor sailing and I watched a beautiful blue boat following us and tacking down the bay. Next day at the marina in Cape May the boat pulled up to the dock from the anchorage, it was Whisper, Hall Roth's boat of long distance fame. He asked how I liked the trip down the bay and I complained about the hobby horsing, He said he noticed it and in his opinion the Westsail 28 was the second worst boat ever designed. But he too is human, when he left the dock he caught his unsecured dock line in his prop and stripped to his skivvies in front of a crowd to dive in and unwind it. I wouldn't put a Westsail on my list.
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Old 14-06-2010, 14:24   #146
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raybrett - thanks for your post

Firstly, understand the 28 is not close to the 32 which is what most cruisers use. The hobbyhorse you experience is also very common to most canoe stern heavy displacement cruisers.

I avoid for other reasons - most significantly teak decks which are not only known to leak and cause delamination, but hell to maintain. It's very rare that you find one that has been glassed. Also, I'm not keen on cutter rigs anymore.

I came within a hair of purchasing a 32 about 8 years ago. I was working down in the valley and the drive to and from Sausalito (live aboard) would have been hell. Glad I backed out. But it was a gorgeous boat - inside and out. And built like a rock. I also had a friend broker who sailed his down to south america via east coast with his family and had a very nice sail.
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Old 14-06-2010, 14:30   #147
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Well, there is a thought I need to adjust to. Can't just up the backstay a bit, or have duos - port and starboard at the tail? Or do we need removable backstays further up a bit, and lower down the mast on tangs?
Nope, you'll need runners. The mast will not carry the load of your inner forestay carrying a sail. You will bend it. Before you damage it, you will sail like ****, because the mast will bend and let the inner forestay will sag. How do I know all of this? Well just don't ask, because I've said enough already.

Think about it; it's logical. The staysail will be driving the boat under some circumstances -- how will that drive be transmitted to the hull? Right. Not through a bent mast and the backstay. One word: runners.
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Old 14-06-2010, 14:59   #148
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Dockhead - thanks for the adjustment. I think I am mixing and matching some old knowledge of mine and twin jennies. With the "solent rig", I assumed that the first inner would not need it being close to the head sail and only running one or the other. But this would basically constitute a "fractional rig" anyway and require them. The question would remain whether an additional roller could be also attached for a storm and whether another 3rd set of removable backstays be needed

To sum up - order of rollers
Headsail 110 or 130+ (must be changed)
Solent Jib - #1 or #2 + 110% gennie (must be changed)
Storm

Pushing 3 permanent headstays but intellectually interesting.
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Old 14-06-2010, 15:04   #149
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Dockhead - thanks for the adjustment. I think I am mixing and matching some old knowledge of mine and twin jennies. With the "solent rig", I assumed that the first inner would not need it being close to the head sail and only running one or the other. But this would basically constitute a "fractional rig" anyway and require them. The question would remain whether an additional roller could be also attached for a storm and whether another 3rd set of removable backstays be needed

To sum up - order of rollers
Headsail 110 or 130+ (must be changed)
Solent Jib - #1 or #2 + 110% gennie (must be changed)
Storm

Pushing 3 permanent headstays but intellectually interesting.
The WHOLE point of the Solent stay is to avoid running backs. It has several disadvantages, in order to have that advantage. That is, that the driving force is taken by the backstay.

So you will only need runners for your inner forestay, not your Solent stay.

Speaking from experience, I do not find runners to be a big hassle. Of course it's one more thing to rig and tension and tend. But you automatically get fine tuning of your rig with it. So there are also advantages.

And when you are reefed right down in rough conditions, they stop interfering with the mainsail, so you can leave both of them rigged and forget about them, instead of having to tack them as otherwise.
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Old 14-06-2010, 15:48   #150
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well these theoretics are confusing SaltyMonkeys head. My take of the solent "classic" description that I read was that the solent forestay (inner) should be placed "about" where the usual inner removable forestay should be. This is roughly 2/3 from the mast to the bow, and 2/3 up the mast. I'd most likely push this more forward so I could get a storm mounted - not quite 2/3 but a little aft.

The classical "fractional rig" demands the mast mounted forward more, which also has implications of need.
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