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Old 26-05-2014, 20:28   #121
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I see in the past a keel hanging with just 5200 after bolt removal, the boys use a wooden wedge here and there and voila, some fiberglass laminate come with the keel, 5200 on steroids
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Old 26-05-2014, 21:08   #122
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Quick story, sometimes I'm an idiot. I ran into a submerged piling at 7 knots, pitched her up close to a foot, nary a scratch. Another time I got lost in a harbor and into a rock garden, backed out using the rudder to fend off the boulders, no harm. PO of our small boat put a dent in the keel somehow, 6" long and maybe 1" deep.

These were all obviously inshore incidents. So, in my experience, inshore is more dangerous (to the boat) than off shore, where I've never hit anything, (but I did give a scalloped a hell of a scare once.)

None the less the boats took care of me in my ignorance and sloppy handling and we (boat and I) both live to sail another day. These were steel boats, full or fin keel.

Not taking sides here, just saying this is my experience.

One of the things I'm reading here makes me think that these light weight constructions are OK until they get some age or take a hard grounding, that they are kinda delicate like.

I'm converting my keel to integral fuel tanks, keeps the rust down, and you'll know where I sunk from the slick! Just joking, but it does make for a double hull construction.

But, each to their own. Peace!

How are/were the keels on your steel boats affixed to the hull?
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Old 26-05-2014, 22:58   #123
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Quick story, sometimes I'm an idiot. I ran into a submerged piling at 7 knots, pitched her up close to a foot, nary a scratch. Another time I got lost in a harbor and into a rock garden, backed out using the rudder to fend off the boulders, no harm. PO of our small boat put a dent in the keel somehow, 6" long and maybe 1" deep.

These were all obviously inshore incidents. So, in my experience, inshore is more dangerous (to the boat) than off shore, where I've never hit anything, (but I did give a scalloped a hell of a scare once.)

None the less the boats took care of me in my ignorance and sloppy handling and we (boat and I) both live to sail another day. These were steel boats, full or fin keel.

Not taking sides here, just saying this is my experience.

One of the things I'm reading here makes me think that these light weight constructions are OK until they get some age or take a hard grounding, that they are kinda delicate like.

I'm converting my keel to integral fuel tanks, keeps the rust down, and you'll know where I sunk from the slick! Just joking, but it does make for a double hull construction.

But, each to their own. Peace!
Steel is not necessarily the answer. Not saying steel is bad but every vessel type has its advantages/disadvantages.

Here is a link to a steel vessel recently lost forever and keel did not fall off.

| what's left of a life
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Old 27-05-2014, 05:16   #124
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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How are/were the keels on your steel boats affixed to the hull?
Welded. One penetrates into the hull and the floors are welded to the sides. The other is butt welded with the floors running across, it with integral tanks so the lids span the tops.
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Old 27-05-2014, 05:17   #125
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Steel is not necessarily the answer. Not saying steel is bad but every vessel type has its advantages/disadvantages.

Here is a link to a steel vessel recently lost forever and keel did not fall off.

| what's left of a life
Yes, I saw that, and it left a lot of questions unanswered.

But the point I was trying to make was more that inshore damage, groundings, can weaken a boat for off shore use. It's an inter related issue.
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Old 27-05-2014, 06:29   #126
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Yes, I saw that, and it left a lot of questions unanswered.

But the point I was trying to make was more that inshore damage, groundings, can weaken a boat for off shore use. It's an inter related issue.
Although groundings certainly are not a good thing, the kind of grounding had to be part of the consideration.

I suspect most boats that have doesn't time in Florida, particularly in the Keys and the Gulf areas, have been grounded more than once. Most of that area is in a soft substrate, and that would be less stressful than hard groundings.

Otherwise there would be a plethora of keels falling off when these boats go down island or to Mexico.

Still, getting your keel bolts checked each haul out should just be standard practice.
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Old 27-05-2014, 07:08   #127
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Not the way it works around here!
Shoot first ask question later..

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Old 27-05-2014, 09:11   #128
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

TN-
"Surely you don't believe this--that all those keel bolt installations and repairs were unnecessary. All the engineering and expense that goes into making sure the keel won't fall off, wasted? "

The engineering that goes into building a production sailboat has got little or nothing to do with the engineering that goes into a repair.

One could argue that a properly engineered keel would never loosen and never require repairs in the first case. But whether a boat is built with keel bolts or keel glue [sic] is probably more of a marketing decision than an engineering decision. If folks don't trust "glue" they won't buy the boat, therefore, build it with keel bolts. Engineering and technology take the back seat to marketing and sales pretty much every time.

There are folks who won't buy a Beneteau because the rudder stock is carbon fiber instead of stainless. And folks who'd prefer to buy it, for the same reason, because it isn't stainless. Beneteau and Hunter and some others are now putting the traveler onto a cockpit arch (radar arch, bimini, whatever you want to call it) and that's a radical new change sure to attract and offend at the same time.

Engineering? Hey, keel bolts make a great way to clamp a keel onto a hull why the glue is drying! That's great engineering, and good redundancy in case you didn't get the glue right.
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Old 27-05-2014, 09:52   #129
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I bet if you removed the bolts from a keel that the gap was filled completely with 5200 when it was fitted, the 5200 may well hold, but the laminate would fail I bet. Whole lotta weight / inertia in a keel in a rough sea. We all want to claim keels fail due to past groundings and that may in fact be true, but multiples tons of weight out on that much arm being swung around in a rough sea is a huge amount of energy to deal with, more than you may think.
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Old 27-05-2014, 09:54   #130
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Fin Keels don't belong offshore? Really? Are you sure about that?

You might want to tell that to a few people, like those who sailed in the last few Volvo Ocean Races, and maybe the Vendee Globe sailors too. oh and the GOR 40 class association.

All of the boats in the above mentioned offshore races are high-aspect fin keeled boats. ALL of them.

Does taht mean I want a high aspect fin keeled boat as a cruiser? No problaby not, but that's another kettle of fish.

PS I want that hand drawn pre 1812 chart, and antique brass sextant. they'll look neat hung on the bulkhead, should give the salon a a nice shippy feel.

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Old 27-05-2014, 10:07   #131
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Generally in life, one gets what one pays for regarding quality in boats, to believe otherwise... is simply folly.

For those who choose to take lightly built production boats far offshore... some folks are luckier than others. It's simple, just take a look around at the next boat show and see for yourself, boats are not all created equal... Some boats are more equal than others.
Luck has far less to do with it than seamanship. I guarantee I can take your Oyster out and seriously damage/sink it if I want to--and I have taken a Bene RTW.
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Old 27-05-2014, 10:23   #132
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I'm not sure I get your point Don..you are going nto run the Oyster up on a reef or rocks until it sinks but you sailed a Benni around the world, I don't get it??
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Old 27-05-2014, 10:31   #133
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Luck has far less to do with it than seamanship. I guarantee I can take your Oyster out and seriously damage/sink it if I want to--and I have taken a Bene RTW.
Is that why you are "boatless at this time?" Did you intentionally sink your last boat?
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Old 27-05-2014, 10:46   #134
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Will you give us more info on these cases you have observed? What boats and where did this happen? What exactly happened to the boats?
I don't know what Dave was referring to, but I'll give you a typical example. I was sailing back from Hawaii to the mainland in company with a bunch of transpac boats. The winds were typical 15-25k trades, and the accepted route is to go north around the Pacific High on as close a reach as comfortable. I left the same day as a Santa Cruz 50, and we all talked on the SSB each day. They were going the same speed as I was, but pointed a fair bit higher. After 6 days, they were probably a day ahead of me, and I was a bit envious. However, the next day but they discovered the boat had structural damage from the pounding, and they nursed it back to Southern Calif for a rebuild.

As a lifelong racer, I could have pointed my boat higher into the wind and seas and kept up with them. As a delivery skipper and RTW cruiser, I knew that it would have been harder on the boat and crew and elected not to let my ego get into race mentality with them.
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Old 27-05-2014, 11:11   #135
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Is that why you are "boatless at this time?" Did you intentionally sink your last boat?
The point I was trying to make is that the Cheeky Rafiki sailed too far north in the North Atlantic in the Spring and got caught in a rapidly developing low which broke their boat, evidently broke a French boat, and could have also broken an Oyster. The fact that Cheeky's windows were stove in means they got hit by a very large wave.

I would avoid this weather regardless of the boat I was on. I remember a Spring trip up from the Virgins to the East Coast when Herb was warning about a bad storm off the coast. I was not near the storm, but heard the damage reports, including a 60 ft Swan or other high dollar boat which was lost with all hands. Good weather forecasting is available even without Herb, and you can sail a lot of places without encountering boat breaking conditions.

And, no I didn't sink my boat, I sold the sailboat, and returned the trawler to the owner. Actually, I'm not boatless, as I just bought an ODOM and may get sucked into buying a Manta Twin to race in the Worlds--landsailers are a blast!
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