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Old 26-05-2014, 04:09   #91
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

How do you capsize a 40 ft cat when its tied to the bottom by a Rocna in 15 ft of water?
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Old 26-05-2014, 09:52   #92
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I agree fully with your post
I've commented elsewhere on the issues where racing orientated crew do long distance journeys. However this was a delivery crew so I cant determine what background they came from ( I don't believe this was the crew racing her in Antibes, was it )

Personally I would have some issues with a 22 year old skipper, and I am reminded of the delivery of a Jeanneau lost outside L'esSables a few years ago in January.

Boaty takes a delivery across, like any delivery skipper would do, always conscious of not stressing the boat, time while of interest, is not the primarily driver. Many skippers today, coming from a typical inshore racing background, stress the boat way too much and this is a fatal activity in a long crossing. Ive personally seen it several times

dave
Here is some info from another web site:

"The four were described as very experienced yachtsmen and Bridge, the youngest of the group, as a highly qualified skipper.
It is believed that Goslin and Warren, who were coastal skippers, had volunteered to do the transatlantic crossing.
Bridge had two high-level yachtmaster qualifications from the Royal Yachtmaster Association that meant he could skipper a yacht a minimum non-stop distance of 600 miles.

To qualify for the yachtmaster ocean certificate, a skipper must have been at sea continuously for at least 96 hours and the yacht must have been more than 50 miles from land while sailing a distance of at least 200 miles.

Bridge, nicknamed "the bear", was described as "undoubtedly one of the top bowmen in the country" in a biography on Stormforce's website. It said: "He was formerly bowman onboard Encore (First 40.7) when it won its fleet in the 2010 Round Britain & Ireland Race and was the 1st First 40.7 in the Fastnet 2009 race.
"He has won numerous RORC English channel races and has raced onboard Cheeki Rafiki with Ifan countless times, again with several podium positions to his name. Andy is a yachtmaster offshore and keelboat instructor."
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Old 26-05-2014, 09:54   #93
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I agree fully with your post
I've commented elsewhere on the issues where racing orientated crew do long distance journeys. However this was a delivery crew so I cant determine what background they came from ( I don't believe this was the crew racing her in Antibes, was it )

Personally I would have some issues with a 22 year old skipper, and I am reminded of the delivery of a Jeanneau lost outside L'esSables a few years ago in January.

Boaty takes a delivery across, like any delivery skipper would do, always conscious of not stressing the boat, time while of interest, is not the primarily driver. Many skippers today, coming from a typical inshore racing background, stress the boat way too much and this is a fatal activity in a long crossing. Ive personally seen it several times

dave
Will you give us more info on these cases you have observed? What boats and where did this happen? What exactly happened to the boats?
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Old 26-05-2014, 10:13   #94
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
How do you capsize a 40 ft cat when its tied to the bottom by a Rocna in 15 ft of water?
Maybe using a big helicopter would work.

But I seem to recall this happening a couple of times to multihulls during very high winds. One was about 170 mph, and another some what lower.

My understanding is that the wind gets under the bridge deck and lifts it up, some what like a kite and then the boat becomes unstable while airborne and flips. Often times, but probably not in this case, wave action can result in one hull being out of the water allowing strong winds greater access to the bottom of the bridge deck.

Probably the easiest way to do it is to ask Yoda.
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Old 26-05-2014, 10:33   #95
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Absolutely correct Phil. Anyone who does paid deliveries knows how marginal the situation can get. Often you get asked to undertake a voyage the owner would never attempt.

I remember well the equipment level a standard reliance skipper would find on a typical delivery ( a big round zero )

Liferafts , EPIRBs , flares , haha , to this day I bring my own epirb with me.

Dave
I once did a delivery from the Bahamas to Florida. The sails were so worn they blew out in a 10 knot breeze. Then the fuel tank had so much crap break free while motoring that it shut down several times and we had to replace the filters.

My mantra was always, "If the boat was seaworthy, I wouldn't get the job, because the owner would do it himself" Yeah, probably not very bright, but I needed the money back then.

I had my own 8 man life raft at the time and used to ship to Tortola for $100 when picking up a Moorings boat. That sucker was very heavy - at least 100 pounds.

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Old 26-05-2014, 10:49   #96
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pirate Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

What was the name of that Oyster 60 abandoned N of Bermuda with a very experienced Offshore racer owner/skipper..??
if memory serves me well his vast experience said an I-Pad was a sufficient C/P for his proposed Trans-Atlantic.. until his recharge facilities failed..
I am not denigrating the lads abilities.. however youth in itself can be dangerous.. I remember when I thought I was immortal.. Furthermore the Machismo inherent in racing makes folk push hard.. its the nature of the beast.. win at all costs..
I do however question the wisdom of the route they followed.. sure.. it looks great on paper.. but the reality is a different matter.. more so these days with the weather seasons changing and the Artic Jetstream shifting to S of the UK coast several times this year creating more swift moving and violent systems..
They pushed the envelope and the boat broke.. simple as that.. trying to point a finger at the manufacturers coz a near 10yrs old hard used boat broke.. is like saying its GM's fault your brake pads wore out and the failure caused you to crash.. design fault.
I'm just glad that my impression from the posts on here.. apart from a paranoid few who are trying to pass the responsibility $$$'s back to the manufacturer.. that the majority are realistic about age and wear and tear on boats.. it happens.. and if you ignore it or bodge it.. it bites your ass.
People ARE fallible... waving bits of paper don't save yer ass..
People ask why I only sail with female crew 'Snigger Snigger'...

Simple.. its so's I don't have to put up with dumb macho sods badgering me to put up more sail all the time.. and I don't work to schedules.. better late than never..
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Old 26-05-2014, 10:55   #97
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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...People ask why I only sail with female crew 'Snigger Snigger'...[/SIZE][/FONT]
No pics? It didn't happen.
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Old 26-05-2014, 11:05   #98
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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No pics? It didn't happen.
There was a pic, may be yesterday??? Or day before???
So it did happen, but not today
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Old 26-05-2014, 11:26   #99
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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There was a pic, may be yesterday??? Or day before???
So it did happen, but not today
Yea, but what have you done for me lately.
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Old 26-05-2014, 13:24   #100
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
What was the name of that Oyster 60 abandoned N of Bermuda with a very experienced Offshore racer owner/skipper..??
if memory serves me well his vast experience said an I-Pad was a sufficient C/P for his proposed Trans-Atlantic.. until his recharge facilities failed..
I am not denigrating the lads abilities.. however youth in itself can be dangerous.. I remember when I thought I was immortal.. Furthermore the Machismo inherent in racing makes folk push hard.. its the nature of the beast.. win at all costs..
I do however question the wisdom of the route they followed.. sure.. it looks great on paper.. but the reality is a different matter.. more so these days with the weather seasons changing and the Artic Jetstream shifting to S of the UK coast several times this year creating more swift moving and violent systems..
They pushed the envelope and the boat broke.. simple as that.. trying to point a finger at the manufacturers coz a near 10yrs old hard used boat broke.. is like saying its GM's fault your brake pads wore out and the failure caused you to crash.. design fault.
I'm just glad that my impression from the posts on here.. apart from a paranoid few who are trying to pass the responsibility $$$'s back to the manufacturer.. that the majority are realistic about age and wear and tear on boats.. it happens.. and if you ignore it or bodge it.. it bites your ass.
People ARE fallible... waving bits of paper don't save yer ass..
People ask why I only sail with female crew 'Snigger Snigger'...

Simple.. its so's I don't have to put up with dumb macho sods badgering me to put up more sail all the time.. and I don't work to schedules.. better late than never..

I absolutely agree with the well-founded points you & others have been making about acceptance of risk and responsibility, neglected maintenance, and seamanship (i.e. lack thereof in some cases). I don't think blaming a car mfg. for worn brake pads is akin, however, to a keel falling off without warning, assuming that's what happened here (as it appears).

Maybe a closer analogy is unseen crevice corrosion in chainplates causing a dismasting, but in that case I'm still in your camp since it is avoidable with proper preventative maintenance (absent a defective design or mfg. defect). Maybe closer still is the thin-hulled J-boat that got hit by a bull whale 100 miles off of Hawaii several years back. It caused a huge breach in the hull and the boat sank within minutes. (Fortunately, everyone made it into the liferaft and were rescued shortly thereafter by the USCG). But there again, I'm still with you since the owner/captain knowingly purchased a lighter boat for racing, and in fact was on his way home from participating in some offshore racing event in Hawaii when the incident occurred.

Neither of these incidents compare to a keel falling off without warning causing a capsize, in my opinion. Unlike a racer/cruiser purposely built with a lightweight, maybe cored hull like the J and the Bene here, nobody would accept the prospect of their keel falling off -- with disastrous events surely to follow -- as a reasonable and foreseeable consequence of sailing a more race-oriented, but still offshore-capable boat. The point has been made that there may have been a grounding or other events that could have contributed to the keel failure in this case, but given the difficulty of diagnosing and remedying any such damage, I don't believe this necessarily relieves the mfg. of responsibility for poor design or construction, especially when this is apparently a rather rare occurrence.

No matter the type or brand of boat, most of us have probably all experienced, and unfortunately had to accept, shoddy workmanship and standards when it comes to recreational vessels. I, for one, don't believe this means we have to accept such catastrophic & deadly failures when the technology exists to avoid it, and there's little if anything an owner, crewman, or even boatyard can do to prevent it. Although CR may have made it home without incident given more experienced and prudent seamanship, that doesn't mean this keel would not have fallen off sometime later. Whether it was 10 or 1000 miles away from land, the outcome could easily have been just as deadly.
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:03   #101
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

At this point no one knows why the keel was lost. For all you know, it was perfectly adequate for the job until a submainre conning tower hit the boat and broke it off. You don't think that happens? A US submarine fouled the trawl nets of a fishing boat off Hawaii 5+ years back and pulled the entire trawler under.

Odds are that something happened, the keel didn't just fall off. And as for
"The question again is does a benetau belong 1000 miles offshore??"
Go look at the EU certifications for offshore category ratings on boats. You'll see plenty of bendytoys are certified capable.

All we know here, is that something bad happened. Aeschylus was killed when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his head.

"[censored] happens."

It is way premature to question to boat, or the maker, or the crew, until there's some sign of what happened.
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:06   #102
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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It is way premature to question to boat, or the maker, or the crew, until there's some sign of what happened.

Not the way it works around here!
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:39   #103
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
At this point no one knows why the keel was lost. For all you know, it was perfectly adequate for the job until a submainre conning tower hit the boat and broke it off. You don't think that happens? A US submarine fouled the trawl nets of a fishing boat off Hawaii 5+ years back and pulled the entire trawler under.

Odds are that something happened, the keel didn't just fall off. And as for
"The question again is does a benetau belong 1000 miles offshore??"
Go look at the EU certifications for offshore category ratings on boats. You'll see plenty of bendytoys are certified capable.

All we know here, is that something bad happened. Aeschylus was killed when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his head.

"[censored] happens."

It is way premature to question to boat, or the maker, or the crew, until there's some sign of what happened.

Fair points. I am admittedly making assumptions based on probabilities vs. possibilities, however. If the hull is never recovered, it's possible we may never know more, unless the charter company chooses or is required to reveal maintenance history perhaps.

Not sure your comment was directed at me, but never intended to slight Beneteau or any other mfg. Thought I made it clear it didn't matter who mfg. the boat, whether it be Bene, Oyster, or whomever. I frankly don't know much about most boat mfgs., except that there are far too many Bene's out there that have safely done more sea miles & circumnavigations than I may ever do. Besides, I like how they look.
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:55   #104
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pirate Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I remember my first boat.. a pitch pine on oak framed Hungarian built Magyar 7.. and a bilge keeler.. she was a project boat I brought back to life over near 14mths.. launched her in the Spring of '85 and spent the summer playing and refreshing myself on seamanship etc between the Isle of Wight and Weymouth..
Come the approach of the end of the season I arranged a long w/end and a lift-out for the following Monday..
Thursday afternoon I set off across the Channel from Poole to Cherbourg.. boy was I excited.. my first crossing in MY BOAT..
Anyway.. spent Friday night in Cherbourg and the following morning headed for Alderney where I had a great run ashore.. it had an anchorage back then..
Anyway.. Sunday I headed back for the mainland arriving at Hurst Point at dusk.. went up behind and crept along the channel on a rising tide and tied up by the crane ready for my morning lift at high water..
Now on the crossing I'd noticed a bit of water in the bilges.. but nothing major... a few pumps of the whale and it was dry enough that a wipe with a dish cloth cleared the residue.. so.. before heading home I checked the bilge and gave a few pumps and mopped up thinking I should check to loo and hose's etc when she was out.. maybe a failed jubilee clip.. or something.. then headed to the car park and drove home to Bournemouth..
Next morning I got to the yard and found her sunk.. water lapping over the cabin top.. when the crane man arrived at 0900 we got the slings under her and lifted her.. the starboard keel was just hanging by one bolt.. what we figured had happened was when the tide went out she sank her keels into the mud.. as the water rose her buoyancy started lifting her.. but with 3 rotted keel bolts put under strain they parted and pulled free letting her flood as the tide rose and swamped her..
The warning was there.. I just did not see it.. seemed non-lethal and my mind sourced other possibilities.. never thought of the keels..
But for good Karma it could have gone mid Channel 40 miles from land.. no fancy stuff back then.. just flares and VHF.. I'd have been stuffed..
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Old 26-05-2014, 15:00   #105
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Odds are that something happened, the keel didn't just fall off.
Occasionally, keels do "just fall off" or come loose due to faulty design.... like on our previous Hunter.
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