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Old 25-05-2014, 17:52   #76
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

[QUOTE=IdoraKeeper;1549752]
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You forgot plywood.........

And ferro!!!!
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Old 25-05-2014, 17:57   #77
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

[QUOTE=IdoraKeeper;1549752]
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You forgot plywood.........
Opppssss.... Sorry..
Strip planked bilge keeler.. the Tiki 21 was ply and glass.. done 3 old ply boat deliveries.. the last was a 40yr old fin from Perth to Tasmania across the Bight..
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Old 25-05-2014, 18:00   #78
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

[QUOTE=neilpride;1549753]
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And ferro!!!!
You got me there... never owned or sailed a ferro... came close.. but a motorbike accident broke my leg and saved me..
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Old 25-05-2014, 18:19   #79
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The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
No need to make wild guesses. With the keel gone, the boat's windows were, at times, required to do the job previously done by the inverted hull. Wave action directly on the windows would easily be sufficient for them to fail.

One thing to note is that these types of boats with huge windows are not well conceived for survival in storm conditions. Any owner of such a boat would be well advised to properly install removable storm covers before placing his crew's lives at risk.

40.7. Isn't a pilot house , it has quite small windows by modern standards , it certainly doesn't have " huge" windows.

Perhaps people might understand the model before making generalisations

Dave
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Old 25-05-2014, 18:23   #80
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Did you see the thread about "Elusive" being abandoned 350nms off Virginia? Full keeler. Ketch too.

Forget it mark. The anti awbs brigade arnt interested in real facts or evaluating specific issue. They just want to tar the whole type.

I mean we just discussed a supposed bluewater boat then has a minor broach a d the hull deck joint seeming failed ?

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Old 25-05-2014, 18:36   #81
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

[QUOTE=IdoraKeeper;1549729]
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You crack me up....we are seeing too many losses...when you tire of going, or are ordered to by someone you won't refuse, you must submit to teaching. Lives are being lost. Poor decisions made. Folks are not respecting fear when caution is warranted. Of course mother nature will tear off your keel and blow out your ports if she wants to,.....but she rewards respect and diligence.
I agree.. to many losses.. but we live/play in a hard world.. no AA, RAC, Auto Club or Tow Boat US...
Folk talk about if the airline industry was like this there'd be hell from air travellers yet the Malaysian plane topped more than the total yachtsmen lost at sea for the last 3yrs +... but folk are still queuing up to fly.. every day 100's of folk are dying on the roads..
Life is risky and things break..
I understand the rectal clench a Cheeki Rafiki incident initiates but hell.. in the scale of things.. how many of the abandonments/sinkings have been the result of a lost keel.. yes it happens but I did not notice this kinda fuss when Bullimore lost his keel..
Come on folks... smell the coffee.. its 'Not Safe' out there..
As far as I'm concerned its an occupational hazard... if you can't take the heat.. get outa the kitchen.
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Old 25-05-2014, 18:53   #82
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Very few lives are lost in these types of instances. This is quite unusual. I mean we discussed 4 or 5 incidents this last year where all hands were rescued.

I agree with Phil , firstly **** happens, secondly its a place where being conservative and careful pays dividends over recklessness. Also the very uncommon common sense is also very usefully applied

It's also a place where experience playa a huge part.

All in all perhaps many of these factors were missing in this incident

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Old 25-05-2014, 19:05   #83
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Re: The dTifference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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That's a good point, but then the keel must have ripped away pretty violently. I wonder if it is possible that after they experienced problems with their keel, they collided with another vessel or a whale, that ripped off the keel entirely and flexed the boat, shattering the windows. Does that sound plausible?
That's possible but I think unlikely. There is debris out there and you could lose a keel when colliding with a semi-submerged container or such but it's not that common. It seems to me more probable given the relatively clean hull section where the keel was enjoined, the crews lack of communications, location of the life-raft, and the emergency beacon signals that it was a sudden violent failure they weren't expecting. I suspect if the keel was noticeably loose at any point that would have been communicated ashore immediately. And that is, of course, completely my conjecture.
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Old 25-05-2014, 19:10   #84
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Don't get me wrong Bing..
Not really having a pop at you as such.. its just your looking at it from the perspective of an owner.. out to look after yourself and your loved ones..
I however see it from the perspective of the delivery crew on the Cheeki Rafiki... we take what we're given.. and sometimes we'll walk away.. but.. if the owners don't tell the truth.. get the boat fixed as they may claim they have.. we can only do a cursory inspection before we sail, and make our judgements from that..
Its a payday and a chance to sail.. simple as that.
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Old 25-05-2014, 19:17   #85
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Absolutely correct Phil. Anyone who does paid deliveries knows how marginal the situation can get. Often you get asked to undertake a voyage the owner would never attempt.

I remember well the equipment level a standard reliance skipper would find on a typical delivery ( a big round zero )

Liferafts , EPIRBs , flares , haha , to this day I bring my own epirb with me.

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Old 25-05-2014, 19:43   #86
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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40.7. Isn't a pilot house , it has quite small windows by modern standards , it certainly doesn't have " huge" windows...
Well, my reference was clearly a generalization, but the online photos show some rather large windows but, you're right, not excessively so. Photo.

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Old 25-05-2014, 22:21   #87
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Personally, I don't see the relevance here of whether it's a seasoned delivery crew onboard, or an owner & his family. Nor do I buy the notion that it's simply one of the many risks that sailors must accept, whether they be seasoned delivery captains or new to the sport. I also don't think it matters whether it's a bolted on keel or encapsulated, a Beneteau or an Oyster, a charter boat or private owner vessel, or even a seasoned crew or novices.

For me the point is that, unlike some of the other failures we've seen of late, losing a keel generally means a sudden capsize and thus likely scenario for loss of life. As many of us have read about, witnessed, or experienced ourselves, boats can lose their masts, rigging, rudders, engines, electrical power, electronics, and be suffering water infiltration from faulty hull-to-deck joints and countless other sources. The difference is that most of these scenarios are survivable whereas a sudden capsize often is not.

IMHO, this discussion is akin to trying to excuse an airplane crash due to a wing falling off, or a car body detaching from its chassis & wheels. Maintenance or lack thereof could have been a factor as many point out, but only if the design & construction make such maintenance feasible. Let's face it, it's not as if the technology for properly bolting a keel to a hull hasn't been around for awhile (see, e.g., post #17). The recreational boat building industry has no external stds., and so it comes down to the reputation of each mfg. If cost alone is the deciding factor for ocean going vessels, then seaworthiness may suffer. In the meantime, and assuming this tragedy is, as it appears, the result of faulty design and/or construction, I agree with the OP that the responsible party or parties should be held to account.
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Old 26-05-2014, 00:34   #88
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Mark,
The full keel ketch "Elusive" you referred to is, if my information is correct, a Morgan OI 41. These boats were mass produced for the Caribbean charter market years ago and were less than quality boats. They served their purpose in the charter business and a few have gone offshore but a poor choice in my opinion. That said it never lost a keel and I doubt any of the many hundreds built ever lost a keel.
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Old 26-05-2014, 00:49   #89
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

> losing a keel generally means a sudden capsize and thus likely scenario for loss of life

Not on a cat.

D,RFC...
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Old 26-05-2014, 02:53   #90
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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> losing a keel generally means a sudden capsize and thus likely scenario for loss of life

Not on a cat.

D,RFC...
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