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Old 24-05-2014, 09:46   #16
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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+1 Unfortunately, I doubt this thread would exist if an Oyster had lost its keel.

But an oyster didn't lose it's keel. That's the point. Taking boat meant for the bay across the ocean in my opinion put captain and crew at the mercy of conditions. Not to mention the folks that are called in when there's an issue. People have taken 24' around the world but it doesn't mean that's where it belongs nor does it mean the same captain and vessel would make it a second time because conditions vary.

In my opinion which is only valuable to me these boats are made to be pretty, eye catching and functional for weekends. If you had 250+k you look and see a brand new 40.7 or a 25 year old S&S these days folks take the 40.7. But keel aside (that's just one factor of MANY) which belongs 1000 miles offshore. I'm actually surprised there's even a debate.

There's a big difference between CAN and SHOULD.
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:01   #17
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

My boat happens to be a traditional S&S design,with a long fin keel.But its mounted much more substantially.It is very wide where it bonds hull,allowing massive bolts to be placed side by side about 6in apart.Not only that but the keel is doublebolted down the trailing edge to bottom on 6'4in. draft.Like an 'L' bracket,much more resistant to side loading.No less than 10 bolts.Its no slug to windward either.
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:01   #18
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

..you started the debate as the OP
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:03   #19
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Not me. I pulled my boat, dropped my rudder and had every inch inspected before my family was allowed on board. But that wasn't really the question.

The question again is does a benetau belong 1000 miles offshore?? They, in my opinion were not built to withstand this kind of conditions.
This forum agrees the only boat for 1000 miles off shore us a full keel ketch or yawl preferably less that 20 feet long, designed before 1956 and built in one of only three boatyards in the USA and is equipped only with a sextant and a chart hand drawn before 1812.
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:11   #20
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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..you started the debate as the OP

Ha! Indeed! Like any debater I thought there was only one answer! :-p
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:15   #21
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The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Hers a quite from the forum/thread mentioned

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"In fact the Round New Zealand race completed recently and the fleet inlcuded an interesting mix of old, new, kiwi designs, Europeans, cruising boats, hard core racing machines and everything in between. And the weather was atrocious with the W Coast of NZ creating a trecherous lee shore with reported 11m waves and 70kts+ winds - many hardened professionals said it was the worst they had ever seen the Tasman. A number of boats were damaged and had to pull in for repairs. And one boat (not racing but in the area at the same time) was lost when the owner had to be winched off having run out of sea room from the shore.

And after a resounding beating, which boat not only survived but kept going all the way with no breakages and won the race convincingly?

A Beneteau First 47.7 called "Surreal".

Here's what one member of the crew said when asked about the perceptions of questionable seaworthiness of AWBs:

I'd certainly be more than happy to do another "offshore" race on Surreal.

She has had a pretty impressive test of her abilities over the last few years... First the roughest RNI Two Handed Race in history and backed up with a rugged RNZ race in which Chris Skinner on Truxton described as 3 times worse than the RNI and in which Sunstone used their Trysail for the first time ever while racing and their Storm Jib for the first time in a race since the '87 Fastnet... Surreal survived both races pretty much unscathed.

From what I have seen the Beneteau First's are some of the better built overseas production boats. All the deck gear seems pretty grunty, the rig is solid with some nice detailing and the boat generally well engineered. If you wanted to regularly race offshore there are only a few relatively minor changes I would make.
There's a reason we tend to focus on production AWBs. There's a lot of them out there. The reason it's not an oyster or something else is that in comparison it's a tiny percentage of boats produced.

The fact Is the first series has a good reputation , end of story. What happened here a d what was the lead up well never know.


Of course we could mentioned the youth of the skipper too

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Old 24-05-2014, 10:35   #22
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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This forum agrees the only boat for 1000 miles off shore us a full keel ketch or yawl preferably less that 20 feet long, designed before 1956 and built in one of only three boatyards in the USA and is equipped only with a sextant and a chart hand drawn before 1812.

You're obviously biased lol. But I do agree knowing how to operate a sextant should be mandatory!
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:44   #23
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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This forum agrees the only boat for 1000 miles off shore us a full keel ketch or yawl preferably less that 20 feet long, designed before 1956 and built in one of only three boatyards in the USA and is equipped only with a sextant and a chart hand drawn before 1812.


Mark,

Beautifully crafted. I think that should be the templated robo-response that CF's servers auto-post everytime a "fin vs full" discussion is started.

Phil
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Old 24-05-2014, 11:07   #24
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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I would like to know how any one can answer this unless you're a boat engineer understand the dynamics of building a sailboat other than speculation guessing and things you have read from other people. History of keels falling off based on what. What is that from. You can show how many have been made and how many are now missing plus include what the boat had been thru for the ones that have fallen off. do you really think if that was a true issue the manufacturer wouldn't fix it. I have a friend that owns a Westsail and he has met the original builder and he asked him what it would cost to make that boat today and he speculated close to a million dollars for a 32. that's why they don't make em like that anymore.. there's a lot more to the story than just the manufacture... actually this probably has the least amount to do with the manufacturer..

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Really! You have to be a engineer to speculate on this topic but someone you know talked to another person and and you accept the idea that it would take a million bucks to recreate a Westsail 32. Me don't think so.
You are more than ready to speculate that the manufacturer and by default the vessel design are likely not to be a factor. What facts are this bit of speculation based on. With the boat upside down in the Atlantic minus the keel, all we know for certain is that the keel is no longer attached to the boat.
Warning! Sarcasm dead ahead!
I would speculate that that the huge heavy piece of lead attached came off due to a collision with the elusive submerged cargo container or most likely from some mysterious unreported collision in the past or could it be associated with a through hull fitting not getting replaced on schedule. As all marine and structural engineers know the smaller the attachment point for such a large heavy load burdened structure such as a fin keel , the less likely a failure will occur. And as a side benefit there is less drag so more speed, a win win.
Ok. The sarcasm is now out of my system. It just seems like those with a emotional or financial investment in a certain boat, manufacture or design seem unable to step back and honestly accept what is. It is a fact that the keel fell off that boat due to design and manufacture . A say this because you can not lose the keel on boat like the Westsail , or many other slower boats that the design goal was much different than the boat with the bolted on sleek fin keel. My point is ALL boats have designed in failure areas, please do not let emotions and financial factors keep us sailors from learning all that we can from tragedies such as occurred. Chuck
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Old 24-05-2014, 11:25   #25
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Sorry for doubleposting it, but I didn't get an answer in another thread yet.

I'm quite ignorant regarding First series construction methods and engineering.

Are their hulls now built using (famous or infamous) Beneteau's inner liner technique, or are they of more traditional/conventional construction?

Best regards

Tomasz
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Old 24-05-2014, 11:52   #26
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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.......


Of course we could mentioned the youth of the skipper too

Dave


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I'm surprised no one else has brought that up.

22 is rather young to be called "seasoned". Regardless of sailing experience, facing potentially catastrophic circumstances, whether weather or equipment related, is there enough judgement as to when to deploy the life rafts. I find it somewhat strange that there were radio messages sent outlining some of the problems they were having, and that the life raft was not ready to be deployed, or why it was not used.

I guess racing experience is not the same as ocean experience, and trade wind sailing is not the same as tackling higher latitudes.

My opinion only. And yes, I know all about Jessica Watson and Laura Dekker.

My sympathies to the family and relatives of all aboard. A dissection of these tragedies is positive if we can learn from them.
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:08   #27
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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I'm surprised no one else has brought that up.



22 is rather young to be called "seasoned". Regardless of sailing experience, facing potentially catastrophic circumstances, whether weather or equipment related, is there enough judgement as to when to deploy the life rafts. I find it somewhat strange that there were radio messages sent outlining some of the problems they were having, and that the life raft was not ready to be deployed, or why it was not used.



I guess racing experience is not the same as ocean experience, and trade wind sailing is not the same as tackling higher latitudes.



My opinion only. And yes, I know all about Jessica Watson and Laura Dekker.



My sympathies to the family and relatives of all aboard. A dissection of these tragedies is positive if we can learn from them.

Well said. All about learning how to be safer. All of us. This is a tragedy. How best to avoid the next one is for all of us individually to absorb.

It's up to each person to determine what boat belongs in what situation, both skipper and crew.

I just signed up my wife and I at LRSE (life raft and survival equipment company) in newport RI for training on how to deploy our life raft and how to be prepared when things start to go wrong.
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:19   #28
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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+1 Unfortunately, I doubt this thread would exist if an Oyster had lost its keel.
Nagatroid... it would have been flooded with folk pulling 'Kenomac's' leg...
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:26   #29
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Generally in life, one gets what one pays for regarding quality in boats, to believe otherwise... is simply folly.

For those who choose to take lightly built production boats far offshore... some folks are luckier than others. It's simple, just take a look around at the next boat show and see for yourself, boats are not all created equal... Some boats are more equal than others.
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:27   #30
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

W[QUOTE=brantleychuck;1548819]Really! You have to be a engineer to speculate on this topic but someone you know talked to another person and and you accept the idea that it would take a million bucks to recreate a Westsail 32. Me don't think so.
You are more than ready to speculate that the manufacturer and by default the vessel design are likely not to be a .........

the person I was quoting owns a Westsail 32 and was at a rendezvous and there he met with the original designer and owner of westsail and he was asked how much it would cost to build one of his boats today with the original standards and he quoted close to a million dollars. and that's why they don't build them like that anymore..

and on a previous thread I was questioning why everybody was blaming the bolts and not running into something in the water.

and I'm assuming it's probably not a manufacturing issue because I'm unaware of their boat keels falling off left and right. but like you said think think think or were all speculating... but the original question pass by the op still stands that you need to be an engineer or a boat designer to answer his specific question


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