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Old 28-05-2014, 20:15   #166
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Safety, comfort, cost, preparedness are all factors that are relevent in choosing boats. We have sailed over 80,000 nautical miles now both ocean and coastal cruising and trusting in yourselves and the boat is paramount.

Having seen modern production boats wrecked in various parts of the world, (mainly bolted on keels) I am very happy that our cruising home (a Joe Adams designed Naut 40) has a lead encapsulated keel. When we re-rigged we opted for larger rigging wire and oversized hardware to cater for ocean conditions. If one gets into trouble there are no rescuers but yourselves.

I have also raced on a modern production boat and seen the hull flexing as we went to windward - scarey as anything - and was I glad to to get back aboard my own vessel.
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Old 28-05-2014, 21:11   #167
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Boatman-
No, you can uncorrect that back to FORCE 5.

As in hurricane scale, Cat5, or tornado, F5.

Not a Beaufort Scale Force 10.

Or, correct it to CAT 5, if you must.(G)
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Old 28-05-2014, 21:28   #168
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapient sue View Post
Safety, comfort, cost, preparedness are all factors that are relevent in choosing boats. We have sailed over 80,000 nautical miles now both ocean and coastal cruising and trusting in yourselves and the boat is paramount.

Having seen modern production boats wrecked in various parts of the world, (mainly bolted on keels) I am very happy that our cruising home (a Joe Adams designed Naut 40) has a lead encapsulated keel. When we re-rigged we opted for larger rigging wire and oversized hardware to cater for ocean conditions. If one gets into trouble there are no rescuers but yourselves.

I have also raced on a modern production boat and seen the hull flexing as we went to windward - scarey as anything - and was I glad to to get back aboard my own vessel.
Welcome aboard, SS,

The problem is relative to the modern production boats, is that many of the owners are naive and don't realize the kinds of trouble flexy boats can get into. And the new wannabees seem not to be aware of the dangers inherent in entering the marine environment, though they may be quite adept on land. I have no solution here, either.

Ann
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Old 29-05-2014, 01:54   #169
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

HelloSailor
I recognize that there is lots of chatter about how fast these new fin keeled cruising boats are but like lots of stuff in life, most of it is just chatter. Certainly there are fin keel race boats that can really fly and they do indeed have the capability to position themselves away from most storms but your average fin keeled cruiser loaded down with everything your wife can get on board is either similar or marginally faster than a well designed full keeled cruiser and neither is fast enough to outrun major weather on short notice. You will find that most skippers will sail their boats rather conservatively when offshore as the job jar starts to get expensive if you're constantly pushing your boat.
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Old 29-05-2014, 02:25   #170
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pirate Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Quote:
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Boatman-
No, you can uncorrect that back to FORCE 5.

As in hurricane scale, Cat5, or tornado, F5.

Not a Beaufort Scale Force 10.

Or, correct it to CAT 5, if you must.(G)
Ach.... can't be bothered... did wonder if your were a closet Cat man tho' with the talk of out running weather..

SapientSue... Welcome to CF.. you picked a spicy Thread for the 1st post..
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Old 30-05-2014, 17:40   #171
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog...s-11428-1.html

Practical sailor article
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Old 30-05-2014, 18:59   #172
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

boatman-
Conventional cats are SO passÚ. I mean, aren't we all going to scrap the old clunkers in favor of wingsail cats with hydrofoils? Aren't we all going to fit hydrofoils in any case?

45 knots and that's not the top end, that's just where things start to get, ah, tricky?

We're a bit like railroad enthusiasts, who are ignoring those foul-tempered Wright brothers.

But back to keel failures and structural failures in general:

I think it was in 88 or 89 that I came across an America's Cup boat visiting NYC. I thought it was New Zealand, maybe it was Oz. And I asked the crew who was aboard if they'd sailed it here. He asked if I was crazy, because the boats were only built for race conditions and they'd break apart like kindling on an ocean crossing.

And that's from some of the most expensive boating in the world, with highly paid design teams.

Of course you can also buy an Indy race car, but you may be surprised to find out (the hard way) that the engines are designed to fail at a mere 700 miles. That's 500 for the traditional race, 100 for practice and prep, and 100 more as a safety margin. That's all. 700 miles and it goes kablooie.

Beneteau calls the 40.7 a "club racer" which means it is a racer which means, everything on it is intentionally built to take only so much strain and then it WILL fail. Or else it will be too heavy to win races. To some extent, every boat is built the same way, with design limitations. And if the builders and buyers don't discuss these things...

Boats are like BMWs. They'll sell 'em to anyone who has the money to buy one.

Unlike Lamborghini, where "the old man" demanded a personal interview, and if he didn't like you, you simply couldn't buy one new. (Of course, these days that's changed too.)

These days? There are warning labels on cigarette boxes, just in case anyone didn't know they weren't health food. And there are even warning labels engraved on rifle barrels, telling the user to read the manual because a rifle can be dangerous. Really!

The day they start putting warning labels on sailboats, I'll switch to golf.
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Old 30-05-2014, 19:38   #173
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pirate Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

[QUOTE=hellosailor;1553322]boatman-
Conventional cats are SO passÚ. I mean, aren't we all going to scrap the old clunkers in favor of wingsail cats with hydrofoils? Aren't we all going to fit hydrofoils in any case?
QUOTE]

Dunno about Hydrofoils... but its about time they caught up with the Wing Sail... hell I was using those on Cats 25yrs ago...
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Old 30-05-2014, 19:46   #174
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

K
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
boatman-
Conventional cats are SO passÚ. I mean, aren't we all going to scrap the old clunkers in favor of wingsail cats with hydrofoils? Aren't we all going to fit hydrofoils in any case?

45 knots and that's not the top end, that's just where things start to get, ah, tricky?

We're a bit like railroad enthusiasts, who are ignoring those foul-tempered Wright brothers.
***Diatribe alert***

: sips pint:

Granted. However, flight turned rubbish after 100 years. Look at the freedom of the early aviators: the spirit of the pioneer. Now look at it. I did my PPLa 22 years ago. Even back then there was too much regulation regarding flight planning, schedule, route, altitude etc. Understandable, but it wasn't the "it's me and the skies" feeling you'd hoped for as a child. A seaplane offers some freedoms still, but nowadays you may as well be driving a taxi. Deviate too much from your course and you're in [legal] trouble, or in some places have an F16 escort to help you home. It's like the skies have become a horizon to horizon traffic separation zone. What would it be like if everywhere you sailed it was like tackling the middle of the English channel?
I'll stick with the railroaders for now. There are noises that legislation may appear to take the decision making our of the hands of the skipper ...Polices have risen up and overcome the brave!

When it comes to new sailing technology, we owe it to ourselves to try it out and see what works - it's evolution in action. If we didn't we'd still be floating around on reed canoes wondering which way dawn would come.
When it comes to technological evolutionary dead ends, we own it to ourselves to kill them off before we regret their existence. Dyneema propellers anyone?
Traditional Cats. Dead ends? Not sure about that...

Are we 'railroaders' ? dunno.
Bermudan rig at the end of it's evolutionary life? maybe - just look at the work being done on soft hollow wingsails by, :cough:, Beneteau:

http://www.beneteau.com/Sailing-Yachts/Wing-Sail

:awkward silence:

:empties pint and gestures at boatie's and hello's empty glasses and heads for the bar:



***end of diatribe***
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Old 31-05-2014, 08:02   #175
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I can out run ANY storm ............. With a big enough head start. :-)
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Old 31-05-2014, 08:31   #176
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Interesting post Hello Sailor
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Old 31-05-2014, 09:00   #177
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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I can out run ANY storm ............. With a big enough head start. :-)
Here, out run this one..... force 2 clear skies predicted by weather service. Actual conditions encountered.... force 8. Yes, this did happen to us & glad I was on a boat that could handle it.

Today, clear skies & sun predicted..... it's currently raining.

Putting one's faith in the weather service is foolish... one needs to prepare for the worst.

I know you're just joking about outrunning a storm.... please tell me you are
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:46   #178
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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I've emailed BeneteauUSA with a whole bunch of questions.. the 1 year check/replacement schedule really caught my attention (haven't been doing that!).. i'll post back here once I have an answer from them (if they reply).
Right. I have answers! - not all the answers, but some of them...

Below is how the Keel is assembled on the Oceanis range (i doubt it varies too much with the First range). On my 461, PMS60 wasn't used, but 3M 5400 (beige in color) was. My bolts were apparent SS (but the grade hasn't been specified). The heads come from the factory unpainted, but PO must have coated mine with bilgekote as that's how they now look. I'm going to wire-brush the paint off a couple of them during the next week and post what I find.

Another thing to note is that even-though the keel is cast iron (and epoxy encapsulated), is isn't threaded directly. Threaded inserts are [apparently] bonded into the keel mold during forging, such that they are an integral part of the keel, but not the same material.

Preparation:
- Grind out the hull bottom where the keel is to be bonded: sand down the gel coat
superficially and scratch the area.
- Dust off and degrease the area with MEC (Methylethycetone MEC).
- Mask the keel profile around the edges of the keel sole with adhesive tape.
- Degrease the keel sole surface with MEC.
- Apply PMS 60 glue all around the edges of the keel sole bilge recess.
- Apply PMS 60 glue on the whole surface of the keel sole.
- Spread out the PMS 60 to get a regular thickness of the glue by 2mm.
- Apply a seal of glue around the inserts or threads.

Assembly:
- Fit the two guides (threaded rods) into the two front and aft axial inserts n░ 1 and 2 of the keel (schematic 1).
- Move the keel to come close to the hull bottoms, guided by the threaded rods.
- Apply PU 501 glue on each bolt (underneath the washer) on a height equivalent to the thickness of the hull plus one time the diameter of the bolt.
- Position the bolts and washers or metal plates from the center to the ends (screw by hand on a few turns). NOTE: plates and washers must rest on a flat surface.
- Control keel alignment compared with hull axle.
- Tighten the bolts progressively and regularly, starting from the two front and aft bolts, then alternate 2 by 2 (follow the numerical order as described below). (Do not exceed more than 3 or 4 turns).
- Tighten the bolts a second time, with the dynamometric spanner according to the following numerical order (described below).

The Bolt arrangement has 8 bolts, a forward, and aft and 3 pairs mid-keel. The recommended tightening order is the same as for a standard flange. Once that's been done, the order pattern is rotated 90degrees such that you start the torqueing on a different bolt but maintain the pattern.

{the below tables may not render correctly - apologies if so}

TABLE N░1: STEEL BOLTS AND NUTS QUALITY 8-8.


DIAMETER
M14
M20
M24
M30
QUALITY
8-8
8-8
8-8
8-8
TORQUEMAXI(N.m)
88
265
451
882
TORQUEMAXI(m.kg)
9
27
46
90





TORQUEMINI(N.m)
49
127
225
441
TORQUEMINI(m.kg)
5
13
23
45


TABLE N░2: SS BOLTS AND NUTS.

DIAMETER
M14
M20
M24
M30
M36
M42
TORQUEMAXI(N.m)
108
314
539
373
637
1020
TORQUEMAXI(m.kg)
11
32
55
38
65
104







TORQUEMINI(N.m)
49
157
274
186
323
510
TORQUEMINI (m.kg)
5
16
28
19
33
52


Cleaning:
- Clean glue excess around the bolts heads and washers with MEC.
- Clean oustide keel/hull junction seal and remove the masking tape.
- Clean and degrease the keel/hull junction with MEC.
- Apply a seal of PMS 60 glue at keel/hull junction: Smooth the seal by the finger, press hard to make sure no air void appears when drying.

The tops of the bolts (i.e. top of the thread) is also bonded to the ID of the hole through the hull with PMS60, to help ensure that

When it comes to how-often one should torque the bolts, I was advised 'off the record' (i.e. not the written record) that as long as there was no evidence of gapping in the region of the keel/hull bond, no signs of corrosion near or around the bolts in the hull, nor unexplained water intrusion into the bilge - then it'd be smarter not to touch them! (makes sense).
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:20   #179
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Cav--the bolt material appears to be 18-8.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:23   #180
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Cav--the bolt material appears to be 18-8.


Yeah it's either 18-8 or 300series, my contact couldn't tell me which. If they're good quality, I should see from examining the head of the bolt when I check.
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