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Old 28-05-2014, 07:40   #151
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
What's the old adage, "Look after the boat and the boat will look after you..." ?
True!! but sometimes pushing close to the limits is the only option, the 40.7 dont hove to well, i guess using a sea anchor in the bow is not a option to, cleats and deck gear is not designed for this kind of punishment, the rudder oh well! a drogue maybe ,,,,, under bare poles good luck ,, saying that for me is not the kind of boat to get inside close the boat and hope for the best, you need to sail this boat one way or the other, simple that 40.7 was trapped in the very wrong spot in the ocean in really bad conditions with a weak keel structure...its not a boat designed for ocean heavy weather, no matter how well you look after the boat....
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:05   #152
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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True!! but sometimes pushing close to the limits is the only option, the 40.7 dont hove to well, i guess using a sea anchor in the bow is not a option to, cleats and deck gear is not designed for this kind of punishment, the rudder oh well! a drogue maybe ,,,,, under bare poles good luck ,, saying that for me is not the kind of boat to get inside close the boat and hope for the best, you need to sail this boat one way or the other, simple that 40.7 was trapped in the very wrong spot in the ocean in really bad conditions with a weak keel structure...its not a boat designed for ocean heavy weather, no matter how well you look after the boat....


This comes back to the comments regarding differing techniques for different boats.

Granted, a high-aspect fin keeler isn't going to hove to (passive) with the same ease as a long-keeler - but then again it's harder to achieve the maneuverability required to run-off downwind in a storm if you don't have a spade-rudder. Just as if you need to consider streaming warps or a drogue to help protect said spade rudder from being overtaken by the seas.

Some boats prefer passive tactics while others prefer active, and this is where the rub comes with this thread. Running off down wind in a fin/spade setup is aimed at reducing the apparent wind speed and reducing the loads on the hull and crew. OK, it's regarded as an active technique, only because you're actively controlling - but accepting the weather and the seas and not fighting them is the right thing to do, a defensive measure.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't CR's problems arise from punching/slamming through the waves close-hauled or on a beam reach? (Judging from the weather and route information)

That doesn't seem like a low-stress defensive tactic to me!
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:12   #153
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I would find it hard to believe that they were close reaching or beam reaching in those seas, my bet is that they were running off as its really the only option in their situation.
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:22   #154
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Very unlikely pound to weather in this boat, heck even 6 ft chop can be a pain in the ass in this boat, cant imagine 15 to 20 ft seas with this boat unless you are running off or maybe the Skipper see to many Tv and try to emulate something imposible, i dont believe that, any good skipper know when its time to give it up and switch for a defensive tactic, or a survival tactic... no idea what kind of wind direction they have in that location but for me with the conditions explained i bet my 2 cents for running off towing a drogue or something , and maybe they do that, its just the bastard keel give it up leaving the boys naked in the midle of the ocean, really sad...
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:37   #155
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

If "hatches collapsed" that implies the hatches were open, not properly secured for storm conditions when the wave broke on them. If the vessel wasn't secured for the wx, that raises other questions and given the usual misinformation that flows on these incidents, who knows.

The consensus of opinion on full keels versus fins (of any kind) offshore seems to be a fairly sensible one. That full keels are obviously not going to snap off, but fin keeled boats are going to be able to outrun bad weather. The problem comes in between, when someone with either kind of keel has gotten caught out in the wrong weather. Wrong for the vessel, or the crew, or whatever.

But that Bene was "CE Certification : A12/B12/C12" which means rated as suitable for use on the open ocean with a crew of up to twelve. Putting a minimal crew of four on her for that long a trip? Might have been part of the problem too.

Again, who knows.
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:00   #156
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pirate Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Speaking of deck hatches.. a little story about my Oz trip in a 54ft Bruce Roberts ketch..
I'd picked up two crew in Vanuatu and we were headed for the Torres Straits and on to Darwin.. there was a bit of a blow and chop as we headed across the Coral Sea and I told the guys to shut all the forward hatches.. led to a bit of grumbling.. but they complied.. around 2am there were loud yells and shouts from their cabins up forward.. seems that as no waves had broken over the decks all day they'd decided to open the overhead hatches for ventilation and a cooling breeze..
The larger than average wave we'd just ploughed through had swept over the bow.. along the decks dumped straight down the hatches and onto their bunks..
What one might call a rude awakening..
Luckily it was just a wash of water.. not a bulk mass smashing across.. else we have had hatches torn off and a lot more than wet bedding and mattresses to worry about..
As previously stated.. there's immense power out there and a hatch is but a twig to be snapped.. even if just cracked open on the second lever position.
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:07   #157
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Although not totally related to open ocean, and the focus is mostly on power boats rather than sailboats, this article in today's BoatUS magazine is of interest.

The broached powerboat that is shown in the article is on the same bar that I considered but avoided during a storm when I took my new to me boat from Miami to Tampa. The conditions that boat is shown in were significantly better then when I passed that entrance in the approaching dark. It brought back some tense moment memories.

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2014/...ave-wisdom.asp
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:34   #158
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Seems like a reasonably balanced article with informative links:

Keel Failure Report - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:44   #159
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Hello Sailor,
You are badly mistaken if you think a fin keel boat can out run the weather or avoid weather. An open 60 yes but your typical Beneteau/Bavaria is only a little bit faster than a cruising boat so you won't have that option and its not wise to believe you do. The hatches used on production boats are the cheap seats of hatches (extruded aluminum) and are not designed to take the impact of a large wave. The better boats are built with cast aluminum hatches but like lots of stuff on boats they cost more so the builders don't use them. As a side note hatches and ports could even be broken by interior components flying around, like stoves and batteries so its possible they were broken from the inside but like everything here its speculation.
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:54   #160
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Seems like a reasonably balanced article with informative links:





Keel Failure Report - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article


Useful article, thanks for this!
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Old 28-05-2014, 10:09   #161
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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If "hatches collapsed" that implies the hatches were open, not properly secured for storm conditions when the wave broke on them...
...fin keeled boats are going to be able to outrun bad weather...
It is difficult for me to try to understand how anyone with any sailing experience, at all, could make such an uninformed statement. BS.

And the hatches collapsed because they were pounded by green water, once the keel was ripped off.
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Old 28-05-2014, 18:07   #162
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I don't get the inshore / offshore part of the OP's question, it seems to me that a keel coming off is very dangerous wherever you are.

To me it is odd to create an engineering solution that has no redundancy and a fast failure method with catastrophic results.

Lets say you looking at a second hand "cruiser/racer" which after a couple of seasons racing had a few small cracks along the keel / hull joint which were glassed over (shock, horror, would anyone do such a thing…)
NOTE: on SA someone posted a pic of a new "cruiser/racer" that had a gap in the leading edge of the keel, yes just a missing bit of 5200 but I could imagine that people might not take cracks too seriously.

Any crevice corrosion wouldn't be visible without dropping the keel and the cracks wouldn't be visible without invasive techniques.

Any number of scenarios are imaginable inshore as to how things can go wrong now, big broach with spinnaker, "Oh honey there's a little bit of water in the boat."

Ok, lets get home, just have to cross the bar.

Is the engineering solution to have glass layup in the keel joint to give some redundancy, a chance to get to safety (even into a life raft)? If so then it appears an old and tested solution...

(Personally I was naive enough to think that all but out and out race boats would have had some glass layup, not just 5200.)
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Old 28-05-2014, 18:25   #163
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

"You are badly mistaken if you think a fin keel boat can out run "
Gents, I didn't say I believed that, just that the consensus of opinion, what is commonly bandied about in print and chatter, is that fin keel boats tend to be faster lighter boats that are more likely to have greater speeds. Certainly not to outrun a high speed storm after it has caught them, but "faster enough" that with a couple of days notice, they can get themselves further out of a storm track, more often than older full keel designs. Which tend to be slow, conservative boats in comparison.

Nothing is going to outrun a Force5 freight train but unless you are really in the boonies with no wx support, you shouldn't need to do that anyhow.
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Old 28-05-2014, 18:29   #164
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pirate Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"You are badly mistaken if you think a fin keel boat can out run "
Gents, I didn't say I believed that, just that the consensus of opinion, what is commonly bandied about in print and chatter, is that fin keel boats tend to be faster lighter boats that are more likely to have greater speeds. Certainly not to outrun a high speed storm after it has caught them, but "faster enough" that with a couple of days notice, they can get themselves further out of a storm track, more often than older full keel designs. Which tend to be slow, conservative boats in comparison.

Nothing is going to outrun a Force9 freight train but unless you are really in the boonies with no wx support, you shouldn't need to do that anyhow.
Corrected...
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Old 28-05-2014, 18:37   #165
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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"SNIP

Nothing is going to outrun a Force5 freight train but unless you are really in the boonies with no wx support, you shouldn't need to do that anyhow.
Before I got my current cat I was looking at Fboats. One big plus for them is you can put them on a trailer and go 55MPH to windward on interstate and out run lots of freight trains.
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