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Old 27-05-2014, 11:20   #136
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I see in the past a keel hanging with just 5200 after bolt removal, the boys use a wooden wedge here and there and voila, some fiberglass laminate come with the keel, 5200 on steroids
This should answer the statements regarding "Beneteau should take action!".. they have..

5200 is the recommended bedding and caulking material according to the following BeneteauUSA 2010 (October) keel-bolt specific service announcement [apologies for the weird grammar, I just copied/pasted from the following link]:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...el%20Bolts.pdf

Back Ground Information
Cast Iron keel use galvanized bolts - There are threaded sockets cast into the keel
Lead keels use stainless steel nuts - There are threaded rods cast into the keel
You can use stainless steel bolts in a cast iron keel, but you should remove and inspect the threads for galvanic corrosion yearly.
A bolt only has to engage the threads 1 times the diameter of the bolt to be effective. 90 % of Beneteau Keel bolts are 3 inches are less in length.
Replacing Information
Use a battery powered drill with a wire brush wheel. Clean the heads down to new metal. Tip: use a shop-vac to clean rust dust and flecks as you clean the heads.
Remove 1 bolt and inspect. At this point you should be able to make a determination if the bolt is structurally sound or needs to be replaced. A complete set of the bolts and washers can ordered from the Beneteau Spare Parts Department. We will need the Model and Type of keel on of your boat.
14mm bolt uses 22 mm socket
20mm bolt uses 1-3/16 socket
30mm bolt uses 1 7/16 socket
If you have water entering the boat through the bolt hole, replace the bolt and make future plans with your local boat yard to haul, separate and reinstall the keel.
If the head of the bolts are so degraded that the socket will not back it out, use a side grinder to grind two flat sides on the bolt. This should allow you to remove the bolt with a wrench. Worst case scenario: Remove boat from the water, grind the heads completely off and remove the keel from the
hull. Then using the remaining shaft of the bolt, remove the bolts and reinstall the keel.

Coating the heads of the bolts with a rust preventative paint will prolong the life of the bolts. Tip: I have used Trailercoat from West Marine with success.
Do not use sealant on the bolt threads; only use sealant around the bolt heads to keep bilge water out of the bolt socket.
The keel to hull joint and exterior seam should be sealed with Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200.


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Old 27-05-2014, 11:20   #137
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

I get your point but from what I can gather it didn't break the French boat but it did roll it and subsequently the crew decided that after taking on water that they could not continue and were rescued.
The bigger question is if the keel had not departed would those boys have had a good chance on making it?
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Old 27-05-2014, 11:38   #138
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I get your point but from what I can gather it didn't break the French boat but it did roll it and subsequently the crew decided that after taking on water that they could not continue and were rescued.
The bigger question is if the keel had not departed would those boys have had a good chance on making it?
I doubt, that Beneteau was sentenced to death since its making water trough the keel.

Making it? probably the liferaft scenario yes, continue with the trip nop! but anyway just one bolt or two loose and disaster happen in short time,
i dont understand why they dont launch the liferaft at first sign of trouble,, maybe everything happen very fast, or maybe not, who know?

In all my long crossings i set a wacht schedule trip to the bilge and engine room, every 3 hours so far, if anyone smell a water leak problem the alarms are triged , and in my own boat i have my bilge drybone all the time, best way to detect problems...
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Old 27-05-2014, 11:38   #139
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
This should answer the statements regarding "Beneteau should take action!".. they have..

5200 is the recommended bedding and caulking material according to the following BeneteauUSA 2010 (October) keel-bolt specific service announcement [apologies for the weird grammar, I just copied/pasted from the following link]:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...el%20Bolts.pdf

Back Ground Information
Cast Iron keel use galvanized bolts - There are threaded sockets cast into the keel
Lead keels use stainless steel nuts - There are threaded rods cast into the keel
You can use stainless steel bolts in a cast iron keel, but you should remove and inspect the threads for galvanic corrosion yearly.
A bolt only has to engage the threads 1 times the diameter of the bolt to be effective. 90 % of Beneteau Keel bolts are 3 inches are less in length.
Replacing Information
Use a battery powered drill with a wire brush wheel. Clean the heads down to new metal. Tip: use a shop-vac to clean rust dust and flecks as you clean the heads.
Remove 1 bolt and inspect. At this point you should be able to make a determination if the bolt is structurally sound or needs to be replaced. A complete set of the bolts and washers can ordered from the Beneteau Spare Parts Department. We will need the Model and Type of keel on of your boat.
14mm bolt uses 22 mm socket
20mm bolt uses 1-3/16 socket
30mm bolt uses 1 7/16 socket
If you have water entering the boat through the bolt hole, replace the bolt and make future plans with your local boat yard to haul, separate and reinstall the keel.
If the head of the bolts are so degraded that the socket will not back it out, use a side grinder to grind two flat sides on the bolt. This should allow you to remove the bolt with a wrench. Worst case scenario: Remove boat from the water, grind the heads completely off and remove the keel from the
hull. Then using the remaining shaft of the bolt, remove the bolts and reinstall the keel.

Coating the heads of the bolts with a rust preventative paint will prolong the life of the bolts. Tip: I have used Trailercoat from West Marine with success.
Do not use sealant on the bolt threads; only use sealant around the bolt heads to keep bilge water out of the bolt socket.
The keel to hull joint and exterior seam should be sealed with Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200.


Does this apply to all Beneteau models? You're supposed to drop the keel once/year to inspect the bolts? How does one determine if the bolts remain healthy w/o some sort of expensive testing? Maybe Magnaflux dye penetrant? Once the keel is dropped, is it a big job to then remove the bolts?
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Old 27-05-2014, 11:43   #140
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Does this apply to all Beneteau models? You're supposed to drop the keel once/year to inspect the bolts? How does one determine if the bolts remain healthy w/o some sort of expensive testing? Maybe Magnaflux dye penetrant? Once the keel is dropped, is it a big job to then remove the bolts?
I've emailed BeneteauUSA with a whole bunch of questions.. the 1 year check/replacement schedule really caught my attention (haven't been doing that!).. i'll post back here once I have an answer from them (if they reply).
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Old 27-05-2014, 12:25   #141
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Wow how many posts can put it diffferently and say the same thing.
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Old 27-05-2014, 12:58   #142
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Does this apply to all Beneteau models? You're supposed to drop the keel once/year to inspect the bolts? How does one determine if the bolts remain healthy w/o some sort of expensive testing? Maybe Magnaflux dye penetrant? Once the keel is dropped, is it a big job to then remove the bolts?
No. Beneteau is saying that if you decide to replace the galvanized bolts in an iron keel with stainless (a dissimilar metal), you should remove a bolt annually to make sure that there is no significant corrosion.

I did see a Bene have her iron keel dropped in a Thai yard. The yard sent the keel out to a machine shop to have the corroded threads in the iron redrilled and tapped oversize. They also replaced the bolts with studs and nuts, and screwed the studs into the keel sealed with 5200. When they re-installed the keel, they first laid epoxy putty between the (greased) keel and hull and let the boat sit overnight in the slings, then lifted the boat off the keel again and bedded it with 5200. Nice job.
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Old 27-05-2014, 15:57   #143
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

CHEEKI RAFIKI: Hull Found Again, Post Mortem | Sailfeed

Enhanced photos from sailfeed
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Old 27-05-2014, 16:15   #144
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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Yes, I saw that, and it left a lot of questions unanswered.

But the point I was trying to make was more that inshore damage, groundings, can weaken a boat for off shore use. It's an inter related issue.
I do agree about the issue of inshore damage being inter related. But also suggest previous damage off shore can be an issue.

I saw that as well. Maybe I missed something but from what I recall a well founded boat that had sailed successfully in heavy weather got hit by a big wave that did a lot of damage to the boat. As a displacement hull the boat sank and the crew was able to be rescued.

What questions did you think were unanswered.
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Old 27-05-2014, 17:18   #145
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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I do agree about the issue of inshore damage being inter related. But also suggest previous damage off shore can be an issue.

I saw that as well. Maybe I missed something but from what I recall a well founded boat that had sailed successfully in heavy weather got hit by a big wave that did a lot of damage to the boat. As a displacement hull the boat sank and the crew was able to be rescued.

What questions did you think were unanswered.
How they were taking water, how much, and what actions they took to stop the water inflow.

Not to be cruel, but as I read it they sounded as though they did not take any aggressive actions to save the boat.

Not being critical, as I was not there, but those were my questions.
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Old 27-05-2014, 17:36   #146
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Don-
"The fact that Cheeky's windows were stove in means they got hit by a very large wave."
Just how robust were the windows on that Bene?

I ask because I was helping a friend replace four fixed portlights and since the originals were "glued" into the hull, I suggested that we'd have to smash them out and implode the frames to clean them out. He said no, you'll never do that, they're lexan. So I swung the claw hammer, just from my wrist, and sent portlight glazing showering out over the rail. (Obviously not lexan.)

I said "I don't think so."

As the Fastnet investigations showed, most portlights simply are (were) not solid enough for storms. But then again, voyagers and cruisers used to know this, and carry storm panels for that reason.

A column of seawater can have one hell of a weight when it impacts.
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Old 27-05-2014, 17:56   #147
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

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How they were taking water, how much, and what actions they took to stop the water inflow.

Not to be cruel, but as I read it they sounded as though they did not take any aggressive actions to save the boat.

Not being critical, as I was not there, but those were my questions.
I just know what I read in the guy's post his friend told him

"A big, bad, breaking wave caught us sideways and rolled the boat through 360 degrees. Hatches collapsed; the heater chimney was ripped clean; the mast snapped at deck level and water poured in everywhere. Our inflatable dinghy was torn in half."

After finding him

" upside down, unconscious and under a metre of water, still in the shower room. My scalp was split open and there was a lot of blood."

He goes on to say

"I was deathly cold, sitting in the cockpit. My clothes were soaked and I shivered uncontrollably. It was getting dark and I knew I would not make it through the night. The boat was taking on water, batteries flooded and no pumps working. We were sinking"

Maybe they could have found a manual bilge pump and tried to keep the boat afloat. I know just where mine is, but I also know when you are cold, tired, injured, and afraid you don't always act in a reasonable manner.

I also know this was the guy's story and maybe he is putting the best spin on it. But the rest of his blog left me with the impression that he loved sailing and had experience in the Southern Ocean and the conditions you expect there.

I always have questions about disasters like this. But in this case I think a sound boat with a good skipper was unlucky in getting to bad conditions.
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Old 27-05-2014, 20:31   #148
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Re: The Difference Between an Inshore and Offshore Boat. Would you take a Boat l...

Yes, that is what I was responding to.

Lots of questions there.

So assuming it was a well found boat, was it really repaired for the storm? What actions did they take to keep the boat from being rolled! E.g., drogue? Didn't try pumping?

I agree that when you are cold, wet tired and injured it is easy to make less than heroic attempts.

No criticism here of the crew OR the boat.
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Old 27-05-2014, 22:36   #149
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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I don't know what Dave was referring to, but I'll give you a typical example. I was sailing back from Hawaii to the mainland in company with a bunch of transpac boats. The winds were typical 15-25k trades, and the accepted route is to go north around the Pacific High on as close a reach as comfortable. I left the same day as a Santa Cruz 50, and we all talked on the SSB each day. They were going the same speed as I was, but pointed a fair bit higher. After 6 days, they were probably a day ahead of me, and I was a bit envious. However, the next day but they discovered the boat had structural damage from the pounding, and they nursed it back to Southern Calif for a rebuild.



As a lifelong racer, I could have pointed my boat higher into the wind and seas and kept up with them. As a delivery skipper and RTW cruiser, I knew that it would have been harder on the boat and crew and elected not to let my ego get into race mentality with them.

+1. I've seen too many boats sailed too close to their limits when there was no need. Schedules , inattentiveness , lack of experience , lack of understanding , all boat killers in extremis

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Old 28-05-2014, 07:20   #150
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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+1. I've seen too many boats sailed too close to their limits when there was no need. Schedules , inattentiveness , lack of experience , lack of understanding , all boat killers in extremis

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What's the old adage, "Look after the boat and the boat will look after you..." ?
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