The Death of the Ketch ?

[tessanna]

I too have a ketch, a 37' Dickerson. The split rig makes the boat more versatile however at the cost of some speed. My friend has the same boat in a sloop rig and and I spend the majority of the time reading his home port... then again could just be the difference between the 2 captains! I've always loved the look of a ketch and having owned this one I will never go back. There's just no substitute for balancing the boat, and eating lunnh whiles she continues on without the need for an autohelm.....

[micah719]

Caution, threadjacking in progress.

Richard Jordan:
Another design death I proclaim is the canoe stern.

They were always a minority, and seeing there's nothing new under the sun, they'll never truly die out; but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Delmarrey's point about shorter stronger rigs and the difference in demand between local cruisers vs offshore types is imho significant....horses for courses. There is a reason lifeboats don't have fat sterns and huge open cockpits within arm's reach or less of the taffrail. An ocean cruiser can go coastal, but the coasters are gambling if they try going seriously offshore.

[Richard Jordan]

Originally Posted by micah719

Caution, threadjacking in progress.
They were always a minority, and seeing there's nothing new under the sun, they'll never truly die out; but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Sugar scoop sterns (or at least a glassed on step).

[zeehag]

sugar scoop transoms are a good reason for uninvited boarding by strangers--easy access screams come to me louder than does my heart shaped transom with high freeboard.

canoe sterns are supposed to be good for sailing in following seas, but the heart shaped transoms of the leaky teaky ketches is good for that also--act in similar manner.

[micah719]

@ Mr Jordan

Sigh, yeah, you're right. I pity the poor swabs that fall for it though...boats that look like sportshoes, and probably as seaworthy. Next year's fashion probably looks like a Croc flipflop, with sequins and automatic GPS tracked espresso machine.

[goboatingnow]

What a bunch of mis informed old fogies

Today's boats cover more miles cross more seas and are enjoyed by a much wider audience then the nonsense of older designs that were slow , unsafe and uncomfortable. In the 60s sailing oceans in small boat got you knighted. Today it's so commonplace no one notices anymore.

You should listen to yourselves. A boat is an engineered solution, such things improve as knowledge is accumulated.

Dave .

[micah719]

If only it were simply a matter of striving for the best solution. Sadly, some are striving for maximum profit, and many others listen to the marketing hype and do not consider that very few of the builders, designers and salesmen are going to be staking teir own lives on their wonderful products. I wonder what proportion of boats produced end up filling marinas and being counted lucky to sail weekends.

To clarify my rash previous post about Croc boats, there are certainly some good boats today....but the mass fashion trend is noticeably toward pampering and strutting and not time-tested methods of venturing across oceans.

My obsession with seaworthiness is not because I see a Beaufort 12 storm in every cloud, but because if I get to live the cruising life there is a low chance of meeting a F12 but certainty of plenty of other stuff leading up to it...call me a belt & braces on the undies type, but I expect to have other warm bodies on my boat at times, and intend to do what I can to diligently prepare beforehand what I see lacking in the reports I study of loss at sea.

Technology is no match for the sea, neither is any boat or crew.....it is bigger than all of them. Sooner or later, the longer spent out there, every boat and every crew will perish. We are not invincible and knowledge did not get invented in the last three generations. I'm no gambler, but I play to win. If it were a guaranteed win, it wouldn't be so attractive now, would it? The thing is, I don't mind being seen as old-fashioned...but I'd really hate to be a skipper that lost a boat or killed people through foolishness. My honest answer to an inuiry after such a thing would have to be "no excuse", and take the rap. Excuse me if I try to avoid that, and keep the flag flying for the likeminded. Hey, I might even enjoy a trip on a flashy hot new boat, but my priorities are ordered differently. Safe sailing, fair winds and a snug harbour.

[barnakiel]

Le me think:

- Cherubini builds them,
- Amel builds them,
- Ovni builds them,
- Tayana builds them,
- etc..

So why death?

b.

[markpierce]

There are over a half dozen ketches in my area of the marina. They are mostly in the 42-to-50-foot LOA range. None are particularly new.

[europaflyer]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What a bunch of mis informed old fogies

Today's boats cover more miles cross more seas and are enjoyed by a much wider audience then the nonsense of older designs that were slow , unsafe and uncomfortable. In the 60s sailing oceans in small boat got you knighted. Today it's so commonplace no one notices anymore.

You should listen to yourselves. A boat is an engineered solution, such things improve as knowledge is accumulated.

Dave .

I hope that description was tongue in cheek Dave, because otherwise it is rather abusive. I am, however, by no means an old fogie - I'm probably younger than you - but I disagree with you. Those on this forum who are 'old fogies' are more experienced and therefore wiser than either of us.

The number of unsponsored amateur sailors who had made non-stop circumnavigations, and the number of people who had walked on the moon, is by my best guess still roughly similar. The number of nonstop circumnavigations made in the mass production yachts which you no doubt champion as 'improved engineered solutions' is, to the best of my knowledge, zero. They might be good for coastal or light offshore sailing, where the vast majority of miles are accumulated, but for serious ocean sailing, especially singlehanded, most are deathtraps.

Go on, head off round the world nonstop in a Beneteau. Go where nobody has gone before. Prove me wrong!

Originally Posted by micah719

My obsession with seaworthiness is not because I see a Beaufort 12 storm in every cloud, but because if I get to live the cruising life there is a low chance of meeting a F12 but certainty of plenty of other stuff leading up to it...call me a belt & braces on the undies type, but I expect to have other warm bodies on my boat at times, and intend to do what I can to diligently prepare beforehand what I see lacking in the reports I study of loss at sea.

Technology is no match for the sea, neither is any boat or crew.....it is bigger than all of them. Sooner or later, the longer spent out there, every boat and every crew will perish. We are not invincible and knowledge did not get invented in the last three generations. I'm no gambler, but I play to win. If it were a guaranteed win, it wouldn't be so attractive now, would it? The thing is, I don't mind being seen as old-fashioned...but I'd really hate to be a skipper that lost a boat or killed people through foolishness. My honest answer to an inuiry after such a thing would have to be "no excuse", and take the rap. Excuse me if I try to avoid that, and keep the flag flying for the likeminded. Hey, I might even enjoy a trip on a flashy hot new boat, but my priorities are ordered differently. Safe sailing, fair winds and a snug harbour.

Dave would no doubt brand you an old fogie, but that is a solid appreciation of why someone would want a proper seaworthy boat.

There is no doubt that mass-production yachts have covered more miles than all other yachts put together, and bring our sport to people who otherwise could not afford it. There is also no doubt that, when put in dangerous situations offshore, they have taken lives that could have been saved by older, more seaworthy boats.

Saying that mass production boats are 'just not as good' as older boats is narrow minded. However, anyone who derides traditional seaworthy designs, such as ketches, as 'slow, unsafe and uncomfortable' has clearly not experienced the power of the open ocean. When he finds himself in the middle of a storm, far from land, alone, cold, wet and afraid, he will wish for the most seaworthy boat he could get - not the newest, or the fastest, or the roomiest, or the most stylish.

It is plain fact that traditional yachts with long keels or skegs, v-shaped seakindly hulls, strong layup, and sturdy rigs with many sail options (such as ketches), are inherently more seaworthy than modern mass production designs. For most people here, the only option to buy one of these is second hand, as the number and variety being built is small, and the yards lack the economies of scale to make them less expensive. I am aware this is because many sailors do not require the seaworthiness afforded by these designs. Those that do, though, increasingly lack choice, and with the number of ketches being built (to steer the thread back to my original post) the options are getting fewer and fewer, and the boats older and older. This is why we worry about trends in boatbuilding.

[barnakiel]

I think Mari Chas are ketches too.

Some of Dashew's boats too ...

So much for 'outdated technology', 'not pointing', pigs downwind', etc..

;-)

b.

[snort]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I don't know, but it seems to me that Ketches have several advantages, like going under brides for one.

But only the ones with extraordinarily long legs. Watch out for that windex!

[Randyonr3]

Always figured, if you have to put a second stick in the air, you screwed up on the design...................

[MacG]

I would say, ask a designer who creates the ketches of today. Any of you a designer?
Ask for his motifs/argumentation. Take Marie-Cha f.i. - hardly a faster monohull available, or take the ultimate classic "Tendara" (I have been on her) - a ketch rig would suit the larger yachts, being classic or not.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

The number of unsponsored amateur sailors who had made non-stop circumnavigations, and the number of people who had walked on the moon, is by my best guess still roughly similar. The number of nonstop circumnavigations made in the mass production yachts which you no doubt champion as 'improved engineered solutions' is, to the best of my knowledge, zero. They might be good for coastal or light offshore sailing, where the vast majority of miles are accumulated, but for serious ocean sailing, especially singlehanded, most are deathtraps.

Go on, head off round the world nonstop in a Beneteau. Go where nobody has gone before. Prove me wrong!


There is no doubt that mass-production yachts have covered more miles than all other yachts put together, and bring our sport to people who otherwise could not afford it. There is also no doubt that, when put in dangerous situations offshore, they have taken lives that could have been saved by older, more seaworthy boats.

Saying that mass production boats are 'just not as good' as older boats is narrow minded. However, anyone who derides traditional seaworthy designs, such as ketches, as 'slow, unsafe and uncomfortable' has clearly not experienced the power of the open ocean. When he finds himself in the middle of a storm, far from land, alone, cold, wet and afraid, he will wish for the most seaworthy boat he could get - not the newest, or the fastest, or the roomiest, or the most stylish.

It is plain fact that traditional yachts with long keels or skegs, v-shaped seakindly hulls, strong layup, and sturdy rigs with many sail options (such as ketches), are inherently more seaworthy than modern mass production designs.

I would think that I might qualify as an old fogie in some respects and am midway through a circumnavigation and have seen some nasty conditions at sea, so based on that a few comments. I find the logic of your arguments quite flawed. You focus on non-stop circumnavigations as being a true test of seaworthiness. Outside of races, these are very rare indeed in any type of boat because most people want to sea the lands they are passing, they do not focus on doing it non-stop.

There are many boats doing circumnavigations including production boats. We are in Darwin, Australia and there is a Japanaese Beneteau 50 just behind us that will complete a circumnav when they get to Thailand. A Chinese guy took a Beneteau around the world solo (not non-stop) as he taught himself to sail. You can't generalize and confuse older boats, with strength, sea-kindliness, build-quality or whatever. There are great older boats and crappy older boats as is the case with newer boats.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I would suggest that ketches (and yawls and schooners) are dying out because there advantages are no longer as apparent as they were in the past. No one has mentioned Solent stays in this discussion and you see a lot of these on newer (often larger) cruising boats. I think an ideal arrangement would be a Solent stay allowing two furlers - one sail about 140% and one about 100%, with a removable inner stay for a storm jib or small staysail and an asymmetric on a removable furler. Lots of flexibility with minimum work and exposure on deck. You see this sort of setup on big cruising cats and it can be used to good effect on monohulls as well.

After talking about rigs (or more properly before) one needs to talk about hull forms and this is something not totally tied to the sail plan - ie you can have a ketch with a fin and spad rudder or a sloop with a long keel.