The Death of the Ketch ?

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by Mexdon

Looking at the photos posted and without seeing the under water configuration those two yachts look very much like yawls to me.

I see both mizzen masts within the waterline which tells me I'm looking at ketches. And to big a mizzenmast it seems to be a yawl.

I guess it was here on CF that I heard first time about this rudder post thingy to differentiate between the two so chances are that I could be wrong

Martin

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Mexdon

Looking at the photos posted and without seeing the under water configuration those two yachts look very much like yawls to me.

If you want to be picky they could be, but to me they look closer to ketch's. The mizzen is not back on the transom and possibly not rear of the rudder. And at least in the bottom one the mizzen is smaller than the main.

[DSDman]

Originally Posted by clint1000

I have a ketch 2 mast 103 feet long wooden built in 1921 for sale cause I can t afford to keep it due to health reasons at a good price.

I'm not sure how much one would have to pay me to take responsibility for a 103 ft long 94 year old wooden ketch....but I'm open to offers! I do love ketch rigs. I can't even imagine the amount of work that would require.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[sailor1924]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

If you want to be picky they could be, but to me they look closer to ketch's. The mizzen is not back on the transom and possibly not rear of the rudder. And at least in the bottom one the mizzen is smaller than the main.

They are both ketches. Both have their masts forward of the rudder head, perfectly positioned to impede the view forward, I owned and sailed them both and should know. Photo below is looking forward on the Countess (top picture)

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by sailor1924

They are both ketches. Both have their masts forward of the rudder head, perfectly positioned to impede the view forward, I owned and sailed them both and should know. Photo below is looking forward on the Countess (top picture)

It's also quite common for a ketch to have it's mizzen mast behind the helm. Having the mizzen mast in a position that obstructs the view of the helmsman is not a definitive feature of a ketch. Actually, with the use of cables, gears, hydraulics or electronics a helm position can be designed to be located anywhere on a vessel,- even off the vessel if you like!

Of course. sailor1924 is correct in stating that a ketch is defined by the position of the rudder head (rudder post) in relation to the mizzen mast.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by sailor1924

They are both ketches. Both have their masts forward of the rudder head, perfectly positioned to impede the view forward, I owned and sailed them both and should know. Photo below is looking forward on the Countess (top picture)

I always liked the Countess ketch design,...nice balance of deckhouse size and shape with relation to her hull,...and nice sheer line

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums

[sailor1924]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

It's also quite common for a ketch to have it's mizzen mast behind the helm. Having the mizzen mast in a position that obstructs the view of the helmsman is not a definitive feature of a ketch. Actually, with the use of cables, gears, hydraulics or electronics a helm position can be designed to be located anywhere on a vessel,- even off the vessel if you like!

Of course. sailor1924 is correct in stating that a ketch is defined by the position of the rudder head (rudder post) in relation to the mizzen mast.

I'm a bit old fashioned in that the old boat was English built in 1924 and I mostly learned my terminology from boats of that era and before. When ketches first started to appear, in America, they were described as backwards schooners and only later did they get defined by the relationship of the after mast to the rudder head. And going cross-eyed because of the mizzens position just forward of the helm was a common criticism of the rig by schoonermen.
Donald Street, in "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" espouses the superiority of the yawl because it gives the helmsman a backrest.

[sailor1924]

Originally Posted by beiland

I always liked the Countess ketch design,...nice balance of deckhouse size and shape with relation to her hull,...and nice sheer line

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums

I agree completely, I like the lines of the older boats and this one in particular. Alden always described the Countess as a full powered auxiliary sailing yacht not a motor sailer as she does not compromise sailing ability for under power performance.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by sailor1924

...........................
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Donald Street, in "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" espouses the superiority of the yawl because it gives the helmsman a backrest.

I have used the mizzen on my ketch as a backrest,



but it's a little far back. I only lean against it with a pillow on my aft cabin deck and the autopilot controls within reach. I've seen those ketches with the mizzen right in front of the helm, but those are usually older than my 43 year old boat! 'though often more beautiful in other design qualities

[sailor1924]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I have used the mizzen on my ketch as a backrest,



but it's a little far back. I only lean against it with a pillow on my aft cabin deck and the autopilot controls within reach. I've seen those ketches with the mizzen right in front of the helm, but those are usually older than my 43 year old boat! 'though often more beautiful in other design qualities

I love comfort sailing. I have wondered about mid ships cockpits I'm sure they afford better visibility forward then mine does. Yes you're sailing one them new fangled yachts.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Mexdon

Looking at the photos posted and without seeing the under water configuration those two yachts look very much like yawls to me.

placement of mast formizzen is not necesarily dependent on visualization of underwater-- ketch has mast forward of steering. yawl is abaft steering.
rudder is operative word not helm station. rudder.
hence, when ye run to opposite side from which you are sitting, on a ketch you could easily get a headache, whereas that is impossible in a yawl, unless you are trying to pee over transom.
consider a yawl a ketch with an open cockpit. no boom overhead, as it is abaft ye, when ye swill sundowners.....unfettered view.
is partially blocked in a ketch by boom to mast forward of your cocktail table.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mexdon

Looking at the photos posted and without seeing the under water configuration those two yachts look very much like yawls to me.

Ketch or Yawl has nothing at all to do with the Underwater Profile..
If the Mizzen is fore of the helm its a ketch.. aft of the helm its a Yawl..

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ketch or Yawl has nothing at all to do with the Underwater Profile..

If the Mizzen is fore of the helm its a ketch.. aft of the helm its a Yawl..

What if the boat is a center cockpit? In that case the mizzen is aft of the helm, but if it is ahead of the rudder post isn't it still a ketch?


S/V B'Shert

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sailor1924

They are both ketches. Both have their masts forward of the rudder head, perfectly positioned to impede the view forward, I owned and sailed them both and should know. Photo below is looking forward on the Countess (top picture)

So is the main mast... never have understood the fuss..
Much ado about nothing

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

What if the boat is a center cockpit? In that case the mizzen is aft of the helm, but if it is ahead of the rudder post isn't it still a ketch?


S/V B'Shert

Ahh... Centre cockpits...!!
The American invention to try and avoid getting to close to the water...
That's called a mongrel.. I should know.. I've got one..