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Old 11-07-2012, 11:24   #76
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Mari Cha III is a ketch.
Mari Cha IV is a twin-masted schooner.
As I already stated Marie Cha IV is a schooner. Although the difference is only shown by the fact that she carries staysails. The mast length is almost similar.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:30   #77
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Re: The death of the ketch?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
In a word: "motorsailer."

(Not my term, by the way. Check what the manufacturer calls them: Nauticat Yachts )
Interesting, their traditional motor sailors are ketches. Their line of pilothouse sailing yachts where the focus is on sailing performance (their words) are all sloops up to their 51 footer, the exception being their largest at 52 feet is a ketch.

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Old 11-07-2012, 12:37   #78
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Re: The death of the ketch?

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Interesting, their traditional motor sailors are ketches. Their line of pilothouse sailing yachts where the focus is on sailing performance (their words) are all sloops up to their 51 footer, the exception being their largest at 52 feet is a ketch.

John
Exactly, I have the 52' ketch. It's a Sparkman and Stephens design, and the emphasis is on sailing ability. It has fin and skeg underbody as well, unlike most true motorsailors. It sails like a champ. But more to the point, whether it's a motorsailor or not has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Bash said the only reason for a ketch rig is to split up the rig to reduce loads before things like power winches and furling existed, and the advent of those items is what killed the ketch. That doesn't add up to me, and my boat is an example why. It was designed by Olin Stephens to have a furling rig and power winches from the factory, yet he drew a ketch rig because it was designed and produced expressly as a world cruiser, and he knew the many benefits of a ketch rig for that purpose. The ketch rig has many advantages, beyond just splitting the rig to reduce loads. The reasons it is much less common now have a lot more to do with economics than anything else in my opinion.
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:11   #79
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Why do people associate Ketch rigs to old salty non-performing sailboats? I own a ketch but did not buy it by choice of rig and when I first started to sail and compared to my previous boats, all sloops, it was so much easier to balance! The auto pilot is seldom used once the sails are well adjusted.
There were many racing ketches in the past, they can be as good in performance as sloops! This is just a rig reserved to long distance luxury sail yachts nowaday because the industry of mass production does not want to have two masts to rig on their boats. When you have a ketch with all furling sails, all controls in a center cockpit and the mizzen mast behind it, you have a very manageable rig!
The only down side to ketch rig is the number of stays around the deck, which is also the reason for not doing it anymore on mass production, too expensive.
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:28   #80
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Another reason why ketches are still in full swing ........
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:46   #81
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Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99
Why do people associate Ketch rigs to old salty non-performing sailboats? I own a ketch but did not buy it by choice of rig and when I first started to sail and compared to my previous boats, all sloops, it was so much easier to balance! The auto pilot is seldom used once the sails are well adjusted.
There were many racing ketches in the past, they can be as good in performance as sloops! This is just a rig reserved to long distance luxury sail yachts nowaday because the industry of mass production does not want to have two masts to rig on their boats. When you have a ketch with all furling sails, all controls in a center cockpit and the mizzen mast behind it, you have a very manageable rig!
The only down side to ketch rig is the number of stays around the deck, which is also the reason for not doing it anymore on mass production, too expensive.
No , the fundamental reason you do not see production ketches is that the rig offers no improvement over a well engineered sloop. Hence it's adds complexity in return for no gain or cost benefit. That is why ketches have disappeared in the under 60 foot range.

In the past they existed for two reason, one , the lack of low friction sail handling gear, two , rules benefit under racing popularised the ketch.

Secondly ketches do not outperform sloops, if they did club racing would be full of them. Evidence speaks the truth

I've sailed ketches , it is possible to get any sloop, that is well designed to have a balanced helm. My 393 could be sailed with my hands off the wheel.

Arguably the best " cruiser" rig isn't the ketch it's the cutter rig.

BUT. Most sailors like lots of masts and bits of strings. Ie they like them" look" of it. So do I . Many boats are bought on them" look" and not the specification. I've raced on a Achanbault 40 , boy it was quick, but the look did nothing for me.

I agree, buy what you like, but stop telling me it's a " better" boat it simply isn't ( I never understand Why sailors must justify their purchase constantly )

Dave
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:46   #82
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Originally Posted by MacG
Another reason why ketches are still in full swing ........
Pardon me, would you have any Grey Poupon?
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:08   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG
It seems that there are quite a number of different opinions among the CF members.
Goboating has his views but that does not imply that they are correct on all points. But his opinion is interesting for promoting further discussions.

I prefer a sloop over a ketch. The second sail is - as I see it - a nuisance. Goboating claims that the ketch rig was for accommodating the club racing rules.
That is not true, that was for the yawl only. And that was long ago. That was a very short time and ended soon.
The ketch rig is a total different story. Ask Ted Hood and see Anakena. And the many other yachts that are still produced with a ketch rig
The mizzen whether ketch or yawl was an unrated sail, hence it help popularise the design especially in smaller sizes.

Quote:
It is clear that a ketch rig is much more expensive than a sloop rig. No doubts about that.
The long keels had nothing to do with the wooden construction era. Nor with design rules. It was a matter of the opinion and a prolongation of traditional yachtbuilding.
You contradict yourself here, if you read about the development of the keel in western ship building , you will see that the long keel developed as an extension of the rib form that was used for wooden ships. It is quite a technical Challange to fix a fin keel to a wooden structure.

Secondly when keels were developed, little was known about the science of hydrodynamics and many " quaint" theories were debunked post war war two

Quote:
It was Ricus van de Stadt who quite early started with the fin keel as it is known today; same for the balance rudder and/or spade rudder.
CAD and computer technologies changed a lot over the years. Not always for the better,
but generally made it possible to predict certain characteristics and today there is no design made just plainly on the drawing board.

The designers' s experience is all that counts. Indifferent where they are located.
The arrival of the fin keel as per today was a slow process that took about 20 years to materialise. A process that had nothing to do with the construction methods of the past but was an improvement of or in the design process.
Certainly van der start was an early proponent of a combination of spade and fin keel in the little day sailor he designed for brunzyyel .

Fin keels arrived because ( a) they are hydrodynamically efficient , ie more knowledge of CAD aided hydrodynamics (b) cheaper to make. (c) more suitable for higher volume construction. And (d) suit monocoque design where the structure can carry the point loads
like all things a confluence of events.

Quote:
Ketches are still build- not to avoid club racing rules but to the requirements of mostly experienced owners. The same for schooners. Marie Cha IV shows that a staysail schooner rig is very efficient, be it that more handling is required but on a yacht of that size is such a fact totally unimportant.

That the ketch-rig' s impopularity has to be sought in the fact that it makes the production boat more expensive might be the very reason of it' s slow dying process.

Efficiency is not the factor, costs of material are.
There is no evidence at All that ketch owners are " mostly experienced" and hence order ketches. Most ketches today are larger vessels where split sail plans still make sense. Often these vessels are schooners or multi-main mast type vessels.

But ketches certainly in the sub 60 got market are virtually extinct for the reason I have laid out. That is, you don't get any appreciable benefit from the cost and complexity. In fact you can get actual disadvantages. Now that there are many easy to use main sail handling devices , there is simply no good reason ( other then aesthetics) to make a ketch in under 100 feet.

Dave
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:21   #84
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Originally Posted by micah719
Efficiency means how well a thing does what it is intended to do. Effective is another good word but doesn't automatically pair up with efficient.

Captain Testicle McMoney won't find the cruising ketch setup efficient for amassing his trophies, and Poor Joe Slow won't want a primadonna racing sloop keeping him tied up with repairs all the time, or wringing his guts out every time the wind goes beyond coastal daysail strength. Horses for courses, and plenty of room left for personal taste and preferences.

I'm not sneering at the mass-production stuff, but I feel sorry for the Jones' that cannot be free anywhere they go because they insist on bringing it all with them. Meaning the neurotic compulsion to do everything fast fast fast, and trying to look like the advertising. Hmmm, perhaps it's time to look at the world "cruise" and see what it means, or at least did before Newspeak.
There is no evidence that ketches produce better motion boats. The vast vast majority of so called blue water cruises today, from exalted builders are sloops. Given this type is not money sensitive, then it can't be as you state.

Yes you are sneering,

Today's cruiser quite rightly wants to bring the comforts of home , this forum is filled with issues arising from that. leisure Boats have always reflected the quality and standards of ones home ( in the 30s that meant having paid crew , just like paid domestic staff at home )

As to the " neurotic compulsion to do everything fast fast fast " your beginning to sound like my grandfather. Look at popular cruisers today Beth and Evans, Nigel Calder, jimmy Cornell, etc are these people sailing ketches , no they are not.
The exception being Dashew, but read his take, his designs are virtually schooners


By the way, from my eye , it's the schooner that wins the battle of the looks, in those old movies of south pacific idylls, it was always a schooner at anchor not a ketch.

But hey may be the ketch will make a comeback, as a place to hang all the electronics and solar panels etc. some boats have so much gear there they might as well hang a sail there too!!!!

Dave
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:36   #85
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Roland,

There is no point of sail where a ketch is a better performer than a sloop, or cutter rig. They may have advantages in other areas, but performance isn't one of them. Mari-Cha iv and the rest of the high performance large boats are fast, very fast. But they are not even close to the same speed as other high performance boats, some even smaller.

For instance while MCiv holds the current record of a west-east passage across the Atlantic for a crewed boat. She did it more than a full knot slower than a more recent single handed attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99 View Post
Why do people associate Ketch rigs to old salty non-performing sailboats? I own a ketch but did not buy it by choice of rig and when I first started to sail and compared to my previous boats, all sloops, it was so much easier to balance! The auto pilot is seldom used once the sails are well adjusted.
There were many racing ketches in the past, they can be as good in performance as sloops! This is just a rig reserved to long distance luxury sail yachts nowaday because the industry of mass production does not want to have two masts to rig on their boats. When you have a ketch with all furling sails, all controls in a center cockpit and the mizzen mast behind it, you have a very manageable rig!
The only down side to ketch rig is the number of stays around the deck, which is also the reason for not doing it anymore on mass production, too expensive.
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:48   #86
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Call names of those other high performance boats, if you please. Which boat is the fastest monohull now?
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Old 11-07-2012, 15:36   #87
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I agree, buy what you like, but stop telling me it's a " better" boat it simply isn't ( I never understand Why sailors must justify their purchase constantly )

Dave
Dave, nobody said it is a better boat or rigging, you're the one who said it was an obsolete design, and I don't agree. It does have pros and cons like all design features of a boat and each one will appreciate one feature vs. an other. Personally since I discovered the ketch I love it!
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Old 11-07-2012, 15:53   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99

Dave, nobody said it is a better boat or rigging, you're the one who said it was an obsolete design, and I don't agree. It does have pros and cons like all design features of a boat and each one will appreciate one feature vs. an other. Personally since I discovered the ketch I love it!
I didn't say it was obsolete, I was giving my reasons why is it not used much anymore on smaller yachts. But it in general is not a superior rig to a sloop

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Old 11-07-2012, 16:16   #89
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

What does a monohull have to do with it? Shouldn't it be fastest ketch vs fastest sloop?

But anyway...

The fastest sailboat right now is a windsurfer. Or a kite boarder. Though I think someone is taking a shot at those records on a Moth. Sail rocket is getting close to 50kn, and may have already, I'm not sure.

The fastest 24hr record is held by Erickson 4, an Open 70, so about half the leingth of MCiv. She pulled off a 600 mile run in a day...



Now of course if ketches had such greate performance you would expect to see them used in multihulls, and other maxi-speed record breakers... But there aren't any.

In fact I couldn't find a single example of a high performance multi-hull being built with two masts, though there may be one I am not familure with.



Quote:
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Call names of those other high performance boats, if you please. Which boat is the fastest monohull now?
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Old 11-07-2012, 17:52   #90
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

I have a Ketch......and although probably not even 10% the experiance of GoBoatingNow I am surprised that his comments are so controversial. Just seems patently obvious. A mix of extra cost, plus the technology of sloops having moved forward to make single stick sail handling a lot easier.

I bought my boat on looks - and at 30' the Ketch rig is a stretch, truth be told the boat would be better if she was a sloop....the "fix" is a bowsprit. Not because it will make her go faster, but because I want a bowsprit - that also being pretty much the reason I bought a Ketch. Science? wot dat!

Although not in the market for a modern day Beneteau etc sloop, in the right circumstances I would not say no - indeed in the right circumstances I would say yes please!......but even though I am pretty open minded on most things, just to "prove" that everyone is susceptible to marketing (especially over the long term - whether based on truth or not), to my eyes a Ketch rigged Beneteau etc would simply look odd!
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