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Old 07-01-2013, 02:14   #346
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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Well theres not as many folks that can afford a new boat of any type then there are folks that can buy a used ketch or sloop !! So saying ketchs are dead because they cost to much to buy new is sorta lookng at things backwards !! For those that want a new ketch theres always bilders out there that will bild them !!!If ya can afford it anythings possible !! We just bought a used ketch, cus Connie and I can sail her by ourselfs without the help of powerd winchs and such !! and have the room we like for others to come and vist and to be comfortable! I don't think ketchs will ever die out!! As folks learn that for daily cruiseing a ketch is easier and safer to sail with a ketch with the smaller sails, makeing everything less work and safer for short handed sailing ! Just our thoughts on a sail plan to cruise a lot !!
The problem with your enthusiasm (and mine) is someone with a college degree and a sliderule calculator comes along and tells us a cutter does more for less, or a sloop, or taller masts, or deeper keels, and on and on.

Congrats on the ketch. They are trully a sight to behold. Post pics!

No slide rule can tell you what fresh baked bread smells like, or what color to order a Corvette in. Somethings don't come from sliderules.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:57   #347
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Trouble is outside of one or two designs, you'd be hard pushed to buy a new ketch.

Dave
I would think one would be lucky to be able to afford and find a new Ketch.

I suppose if the argument is made that the Death of the Ketch is a based on the number of new ketches sold, then the point has merit. My perspective to the contrary; those who own ketches -- of any type -- are loyal to the design and rarely depart with them; hence, the ketch is not dead.

Please realize I am generalizing and there are exceptions.
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:10   #348
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Originally Posted by Greatketch33

I would think one would be lucky to be able to afford and find a new Ketch.

I suppose if the argument is made that the Death of the Ketch is a based on the number of new ketches sold, then the point has merit. My perspective to the contrary; those who own ketches -- of any type -- are loyal to the design and rarely depart with them; hence, the ketch is not dead.

Please realize I am generalizing and there are exceptions.
That was my point. To have affordable secondhand ketches, there needs to be reasonably affordable new ones. And Amel isn't am example

Dave
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:37   #349
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
In-mast manual furling at the Mizzen. This is really easy witha winch handle.

In mast electric at the main with manual over-ride. I can't tell you how easy this is.

ProFurl 52 at the forestay. This is the "classic" with manual drum.
ProFurl 42 at the cutter stay. Also "classic".
Both forestays are operated from the center cockpit using the running backstay self-tailing winches or secondary or primary winches. The primary is electric. We use a Milwaukee 1/2" drill motor with 28 VDC battery and winch drive to bring in the jibs. The forestay has a Quantum fusion membrane 135 and the cutter stay carries a storm jib to the 2nd spreader and short foot.

The main also has a storm staysial seperate track. I've never had to use it.

There is a mizzen staysail halyard and two spinnaler halyards and spare jib halyard.

We only use the kite if the wind is less than about 12 knots.

Camper & Nicholson 58 - 1984. Most ketches use a smaller rig than the sloop version. My cousin had a cutter-sloop version (sister-ship) of ours. Our main masts were identical. I attached the sales borchure images. You have to love the shot of several 58's together. You can see in the profile picture that the ketch is a sloop witha mizzen added on. I did note to my wife that the boat was missing som of the original deck equipment shown in the one photo. She said its still all there - just remember the picture was 1984.

Based on the layout in these pics, I would call your boat more of a yawl than a ketch. The mizzen is pretty small and aft of the helm. The big difference in most designs between a ketch rig and a sloop is that the main mast in the ketch will be placed further forward than the sloop, resulting in a smaller foretriangle. This is one reason that sloops generally do better to weather than ketches, we all know the jib drives the boat to weather and a sloop has a bigger jib. Also with the main further aft, the sloop will tend to balance the helm better when sailing to weather. Of course that is the exact reason the main on a ketch is further forward, it will tend to balance the helm when sailing downwind, making it a better downwind sailor than the sloop. Having the main further forward also obviously makes room for a bigger mizzen, placed further forward as well. The traditional way to define whether a boat is a ketch or a yawl is whether the mizzen is forward of the helm or aft of it, as well as main mast location. This is of course complicated by modern center cockpit designs, but your boat clearly has an aft cockpit, with the mizzen behind the helm, and the mainmast in exactly the same place as the sloop rig. This makes it a yawl to me, which is a sloop with a small mizzen added.

I've seen a few builders have a "ketch" rig designed with the main in the same place as it is in the sloop. It is usually a cost saving measure, so that a second set of deck tooling is not needed, which saves the builder a vast sum of money. But I doubt that's the case here. Wonder why they drew it that way, and then called it a ketch instead of a yawl?
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:45   #350
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

for gary mayo--when you hit the 60 kt chubasco winds here in mexico, you , too, will reef you rjib n jigger...and we still accomplished 8.4 kts boat speed in a FORMOSA...
some ketch sailors have sailed sloops prior to owning ketches, and , for me, tha tis exactly why i bought and sail a ketch for cruising in comfort and easy solo sailing.....
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:06   #351
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
................ The traditional way to define whether a boat is a ketch or a yawl is whether the mizzen is forward of the helm or aft of it, as well as main mast location............ Wonder why they drew it that way, and then called it a ketch instead of a yawl?
Defining a ketch or a yawl by the position of the helm is neither traditional or correct. The definition is determined by the position of the mizzen mast being forward or aft of the rudder post. This is exactly why the vessel you cite is a ketch and not a yawl.
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Old 07-01-2013, 16:21   #352
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Traditionally, the helm and rudder post tended to be in approximately the same place. Since you can't generally see the rudder post with the boat in the water, people have (traditionally) used helm position to indicate rudder post position and determine at a glance from a distance whether a boat is ketch or yawl rigged. This rule of thumb has been used by many authors for a very long time now as well, cementing it fairly firmly in the boating lexicon. I think most NA's would consider the mizzen's position in relation to the keel (as well as the main's) more important than its relation to the rudder post.
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Old 07-01-2013, 17:27   #353
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Honestly, if you can't do figure eights and tiny circles, undersail in a tight anchorage then you don't know what a cutter ketch or yawl is all about!
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Old 07-01-2013, 23:07   #354
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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................. This rule of thumb has been used by many authors for a very long time now as well, cementing it fairly firmly in the boating lexicon..................
Just because a number of people have continued to make the same mistake for a long time it does not make them correct. The helm is only at the rudder post on boats with a tiller and not a long tiller at that. With cables and hydraulic steering the helm can be virtually anywhere on the boat. Most ketches do have the helm in front of the mizzen, but, as they are ketches, the rudder post is behind the mizzen.
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Old 07-01-2013, 23:16   #355
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Yep! ya can't beat a ketch for easy anchoring under sail !! and they ride at anchor so well with the mizzen set right!! that alone makes a ketch or a yawl the boats for me !!
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Old 08-01-2013, 18:47   #356
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

My boat is a ketch when I want it to be and a cutter when I dont and if I'm too lazy to hoist the staysl, it looks like a sloop! And being a double ender - when I sail backwards it's a schooner!
Pass me another cabinboy Jim!
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Old 08-01-2013, 19:00   #357
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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My boat is a ketch when I want it to be and a cutter when I dont and if I'm too lazy to hoist the staysl, it looks like a sloop! And being a double ender - when I sail backwards it's a schooner!
Pass me another cabinboy Jim!


Awesome! You'll have to show us that sailing backwards thing sometime....
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Old 08-01-2013, 19:35   #358
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

In the slip or at anchor with the wind in your teeth, haul both booms as far forward as you can,& back wind the jib and you'll go backwards!
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:01   #359
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With such lively discussions about the ketch; how can there be any notions of ketch death? Heh
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:38   #360
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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In the slip or at anchor with the wind in your teeth, haul both booms as far forward as you can,& back wind the jib and you'll go backwards!

This isnt a ketch trick as any dinghy sailor will demonstrate!!
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