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Old 14-07-2012, 11:43   #166
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Hetairos is docked here in St Marteen 2 months agoo, he sustain some damage to the torpedo bulb keel section after run aground when he come back from the St Barth megabuck regata , inded, the boat is impresive , the rigs , the size, is just amazing!! Just the mizzen mast as the size of many large sloops around,, what a expensive toy!!!
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Old 14-07-2012, 20:09   #167
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Hetairos is docked here in St Marteen 2 months agoo, he sustain some damage to the torpedo bulb keel section after run aground when he come back from the St Barth megabuck regata , inded, the boat is impresive , the rigs , the size, is just amazing!! Just the mizzen mast as the size of many large sloops around,, what a expensive toy!!!
The interesting thing is Hetairos is said to have surveyed the bottom at 8 knots. This speed times this mass would mean huge damage to many boats. She just lifted (sic!!!) her keel and sailed on. So much for 'unsuitability of lifting keels for cruising'.

The sacrificial part of the keel was lost but otherwise they believe the structure is fine.

What a boat!
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Old 15-07-2012, 00:01   #168
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

SY Hetairos is amazing. Never seen her, but the pictures sure are spectacular.

She however is a perfect example of when a Ketch would be desirable. Part of her design spec was to be able to go through the Panama Canal, which has a maximum allowable air height of 62.5m at low tide, compared to her main mast height of 62.5m, is a clear indication that the designers pushed the mast as far up as they could go, then added the second mast to make up for lost sail area.

And boy is she fast. With a top speed of over 25kn. And an average Trans-Atlantic speed of just over 15kn.

Probably one of the most unique finished boats I have ever read about as well... Aparently they intentionally distressed and damaged the interior furniture as it was being built to give it an aged feel, and to soften the lines of things.

Like they intentionally cut the floor planking slightly off square, and added repair splices, and butter fly joints to imitate prior repaired damage. And threw chains, and rubbed dirt into the cherry wood planks to add a distressed look.
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Old 15-07-2012, 08:36   #169
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
A Cherubini 44 ketch will beat the pants off many "modern" production monohulls of similar length on all points of sail except a close reach. The Cherubini will exceed hull speed under certain conditions. A 20 year-old Cherubini 44, Silhouette, won the 2007 Marion Bermuda race (Founder's Trophy for best overall performance).

One factor in Silhouette's victory was the fact that she had very seakindly performance in the gulf stream. Another was the fact that, with two spars, she could put up more sail area than the sloops. And of course she was the prettiest boat in the race, for those who care about such things.
I was just reading thru this subject thread from the begining and ran across this posting about the Cherubini's. Ive always had an appreciation for these two designs, the 44 and 48, particularly the cockpit areas and that wonderful 'hour glass' stern of theirs.

Here are a couple of links to expand on the subject:
Cherubini Yachts, classic sail boats, speed boats, and runabouts.

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Old 15-07-2012, 08:45   #170
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by GaryMayo View Post
Explaining a bumble bee, might very well ground them, till you look out the window and see them flying. Knowledge while important, and admirable, does not explain everything, and may explain it one way today, and explain it another way tomorrow, as evident in textbooks always being outdated and replaced.

I can draw a banana, but I cannot draw how it tastes. The world is not all Fords or all Chevys. No one brand gets 100% marketnshare. Beyond that, there are how many car makers? Is it because 60% of the car buyers get it wrong? No, it is because of a little thing called the selection.

You cannot walk into a Dusenberry dealership today and pick out a duzy because it was a bad design. Selection killed the Duzy why? It was so much better than anyone needed. One does not need a perfect mousetrap, one needs a mousetrap, that catches mice, and for the fewest dollars spent.

Nature did not design a bumble bee to be efficient, or it would look like a hornet. A ketch sailboat is what nature would have designed to show off.
Love that last quote !
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Old 15-07-2012, 09:20   #171
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Ketch Rig on a Multihull

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
What does a monohull have to do with it? Shouldn't it be fastest ketch vs fastest sloop?
But anyway...
Now of course if ketches had such greate performance you would expect to see them used in multihulls, and other maxi-speed record breakers... But there aren't any.

In fact I couldn't find a single example of a high performance multi-hull being built with two masts, though there may be one I am not familure with.
Not exactly a 'performance' multihull, but here is Chris Whites take on a ketch rigged multihull.

....excerpts from Chris White’s sailing report aboard his client’s Concept 63, ketch rigged catamaran design HERON
__________________________________________________ _______________
Sunday, October 25, 1998, I joined Bill Shuman owner/builder of the new Concept 63 catamaran HERON and crew Joan Welsh for a sail down the east coast of the USA.

……text break…..

Immediately, I was struck by the way Heron slides along at 10 knots in relatively light conditions. Our speed varied from 9 to 11 knots sailing close hauled in 12 to 14 knots of true wind speed with a rolling swell. During the first night the wind shifted to NE and fell away to near calm so we motorsailed into the next morning. Our first days run was about 230 n.miles.

As we neared Cape Hatteras the wind built stronger out of the northeast. For a while early on day two we had 25 knots of wind astern with waves of 6' to 8'. These waves were large enough to surf and we had a number of nice rides producing 16 to 18 knots of boat speed under full working sail. The Alpha autopilot did a fine job of steering but was not quite as good at catching waves as an attentive helmsman. In a ketch rig it pays to sail a very broad reach rather than a dead run since this prevents the mainsail from being blanketed from the mizzen. This we did and the sails were drawing well with only an occasional backwinding of the jib. The jib was snatch blocked to the rail giving a nice wide lead while main and mizzen each used a combination vang/preventer led to the leeward rail which provides the sail control of a 28' long traveler without the weight and expense.

……text break….

However, we had to jibe back to fetch Diamond Shoals 30 miles to our south but did so a little too early. After dark, with dinner in the oven, we strayed back into the Gulf Stream. The water temperature immediately shot up to 83 degrees! Over a period of 15 to 20 minutes the waves grew to 10' or so and steepened such that tops were falling over and the wind built to near gale force. Wow, that was quick! It was fun to let Heron strut her stuff for a little while, and strut she did with prolonged surfing rides generating 20 knots or more of speed. But it was also getting a little raucous below decks and with a full mizzen Heron was developing a lot of weather helm. We decided to get some sail off (double reef in the mizzen and rolled up about 20% of the jib) and jibe back to the SW to get out of the worst of the current

……text break….

Now that we were around the corner we were able to head more toward the west which brought the apparent wind up closer to the starboard beam. Heron loved this! With the wind direction NNE at 20 gusting to 25 we took off on a beam reach at a steady 14 knots occasionally reaching 17 in the puffs. The moon was bright, the wind now cold since it was coming off the land rather than the warm Gulf Stream and we were streaking along dry and comfortable with Cape Lookout 70 miles ahead but getting rapidly closer. But in the wee hours the wind once again fell away. Near Cape Lookout we finally gave up pure sailing for motorsailing at nearly 10 knots by running a single engine at 2300 rpm with light wind on the beam.

……text break….

Late in the day the breeze came around toward the SW and gradually built in strength. This was a great opportunity to see Heron sail upwind. We strapped the sheets in tight put both daggerboards down, set the autopilot and watched in awe as she powered up past 10 knots to 11.5 hard on the wind with full sail in about 18 knots of breeze. We had a wonderful fresh yellowfin tuna dinner in the main saloon watching the sun set while Bill's beautiful new machine devoured the miles toward Georgia. Under autopilot we were barreling along upwind enjoying our meal and spectacular view at the same time Joan's nearly full wine glass rested peacefully on the smooth table top without a ripple inside. Before dark I had a good chance to look at the masts for movement. With about 25+ knots apparent and full sail the rig was very stable. The masts were very straight and the leeward rigging still reasonably snug. A small amount of movement was seen in the mizzen masthead but this is to be expected with a long cantilever masthead. Most cats suffer from too much headstay sag which makes windward sailing less productive or requires a running backstay to remove. Heron has no running backstays but her rig is so efficient and stable due to the wide chainplate spacing and resulting large shroud angles that headstay sag is very minimal

…….text break…

The NOAA forecasters had changed the predicted wind direction 4 times in the last 12 hours so the next wind was anybody's guess. My guess was that because the only wind direction that they had forgotten to predict was southeast, the wind was surely to arrive from that quadrant. Well, by mid afternoon we were having a beautiful sail with 12 knots of SE wind, beam reaching along toward the Sea Islands of Georgia where Bill and Joan planned to cruise a few days and I planned to depart.
As evening rolled into night we saw some of the nicest sailing that I have ever had the pleasure to enjoy. The moon was nearly full, the wind a gentle breeze from the port bow and the ocean absolutely flat. By now we were far enough south so that it was warm. I spent hours of my watch sitting in the trampoline near the windward bow watching the slender hulls slice cleanly through the water at a steady 8 to 9 knots
The wind, while very steady in direction became progressively lighter. By 3 am it was 7 knots by my best estimate (no wind speed instruments on board). It is always hard to evaluate performance of a new design without having a boat of known ability sailing alongside but these were ideal conditions to see how Heron sails to windward in light wind. By recording GPS and knotmeter speeds and headings over several minutes and averaging the readings I was able to get consistent results with little data scatter. We also tried several daggerboard settings and found that in this light wind it seems that Heron's best windward performance was obtained by having only one daggerboard fully down. Our best upwind VMG seemed to be at 5.93 knots boatspeed at an angle of about 53 degrees to the true wind. Pretty respectable for a conservative ketch rigged cruising cat in 7 knots of wind

……text break….

It was a great sail and very instructive for me. We saw a variety of conditions although the weather was generally light for the trip. Heron, with her long fine hulls, covers ground very well. I really like her rig, which although modest in size, is efficient and easy to handle. Going upwind in stronger conditions I had complete confidence in the spars which are extremely well supported by the long swept spreaders and efficient shroud angles. Light air performance was the big surprise. I knew that she'd be fast in a breeze but I did not fully appreciate how well she would sail in light air. This feature I ascribe to her more slender-than-normal hulls which are just so easy to move through the water.

Heron demonstrated that the catamaran Achilles' heel, underwing clearance and related pounding, could be dealt with successfully. We saw (actually felt) a few kicks to the belly in the sloppy conditions rounding Cape Hatteras but they were less frequent and less severe than most cruising cats that I've sailed. Sailing upwind in waves there would be a rumble of water noise every now and then as a wave top was mashed between the hull and wing intersection but it was easy to ignore. For her weight and overall beam the C-63 design has fairly generous underwing clearance. But it seems that the larger advantage is in her slender hulls which create much smaller (almost non-existent) bow waves. It seems to me that that hull waves are often responsible for a lot of the underwing slamming as they cause existing seas to peak upward at exactly the wrong time as the lowest part of the wing passes over them. (BE noted: my observations as well)

Another issue of importance in a cruising cat is no wind, or very light wind. Racing boats are disqualified if they use the engine. Consequently boats designed to race (and the cruising boats that emulate the racing designs) have sail plans optimized for light air, which are often too large and too fragile for offshore cruising. Cruising boats, on the other hand, use the engine when the wind quits. And the time spent motoring, or motorsailing, is often quite significant. The term motorsailer has had negative connotations for decades. Normally motorsailers neither SAIL nor MOTOR very well. So they've been viewed with some disdain as neither fish nor fowl. But I view the Concept 63 design as a motorsailer that works. Her power performance with twin 50 HP diesels is quite good with 10 knots average speed at an easy 2750 rpm. Fuel consumption is very moderate and she achieves about 5 miles per gallon at 10 knots (typical for catamaran power boats is 3 mpg or less). But the real benefits happen when there is some wind too. Running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone. And of course when there is wind you can shut off the noise makers and enjoy superb sailing at faster speeds than any reasonable engine could provide. I know that there is now considerable interest in power catamarans, with all the builders coming out with updated models. But honestly, there is nothing in the world quite as nice as shutting off the damn engines and SAILING.

In terms of weight or cost Heron is no more boat than the typical 50' cruising cat, nor does she require any more effort to sail. But by drawing out the hulls to 63' in length substantial benefits are gained in performance and comfort. This combined with her 3' draft, the ability to pass under 65' bridges and excellent performance under power make her an incredibly versatile and pleasing cruising boat.
Chris White
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Brian added: I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above !!!
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Old 15-07-2012, 09:38   #172
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Brion Toss on Mizzens

...I was wandering thru a library the other day I happened on a few books from which I extracted some interesting passages. This one is from Brion Toss’s book, “The Complete Rigger’s Apprentice"

A Portfolio of Rigs

If there’s one thing that characterizes rig design, it is endless variation. Riggers and designers take the apparently simple task of holding a mast up and render it in more, and weirder ways than you'd ever think possible. With such a profusion of structures it can get confusing out there when you're trying to make decisions for your boat.

The good news is that sensible variations are responses to sensible considerations; hull type, climate, sailor's temperament, and other factors inform how a finished rig looks. So if you understand those factors you'll be well along in understanding design. The following portfolio is intended to illuminate design decisions, and to show some (mostly) appropriate results. Soak it up, and then turn new eyes on your rig.

MIZZENS

In this sloop-happy world, mizzenmasts don’t get a lot of respect. Ketches and yawls generally don’t go to weather as well as their single-masted cousins, and so are viewed by many sailors as inefficient—that is, by those whose sole definition of “efficient” is “able to tack through 70 degrees.”

“The elaborations of elegance are at least as fascinating, and more various, more democratic, more healthy, more practical….though less glamorous….than the elaborations of power.” Wendell Berry

But a mizzen can be more than just an extra mast. It can be evidence that designer and owner have decided that versatility and comforting redundancy offset a loss of absolute weatherliness. That the expense and complexity of an added mast is off-set by reduced size, expense, and labor-intensiveness of the mainmast. That any inconvenience and clutter,…the mizzen of a ketch does sit right in the boat's busiest work area…can be more than offset by a center of effort lower than that of a comparable sloop, by less sharply focused hull stresses, by a more versatile sail plan, and by increased power on a reach. This last reason is why so many of the vessels in the most recent Whitbread Round-the-World Race were ketch-rigged.

Because a small (under 33 feet or 11 meters) sloops and cutters already have relatively easily handled sails, mizzens are most appropriate on larger vessels. Crew laziness or non-agility, or a particularly large sail plan might justify a mizzen on smaller vessels.

Regardless of vessel size, a mizzen always presents a challenge in rig design. How do you stay it adequately without interfering with the main? With few exceptions (see Sundeer below), there isn’t room between the mizzen-mast and the main boom for a forestay. There often isn’t even room for much of an angle on the forward-leading mizzen shrouds. And because the mizzen is so far aft, there’s also rarely room for a backstay. Designers have risen to these and other mizzen challenges with varying degrees of success. What follows is a spectrum of configurations analyzed for interrelationship.

[...text on other designs from original book omitted here ]
SunDeer
Yacht designer and world cruiser Steve Dashew brings mizzens into the New Age. There’s a high-aspect, double-spreader, intentionally bendy rig on his evolutionary ketch Sundeer. And there’s even a forestay and backstay, details more commonly associated with mainmasts.
Modern details aside, this mizzen has a lot in common with the ones mentioned previously. Like them it’s a place to hang a staysail for reaching power, makes for a lower center of effort than a sloop of comparable sail area, and is part of a versatile easily-handled sail plan.

But there are two other important mizzen virtues that Sundeer in particular exemplifies. One, mentioned briefly at the beginning of this essay is the mizzens helpmate-relationship with the main. Sloop proponents talk about a split rig’s ‘inefficiency’, then usually go on to how having a mizzen means you have to buy a whole extra mast, sails, and rigging. They admit only grudgingly that a ketch or a yawl might be easier to handle or more versatile. And they never mention that the main on a ketch can be much smaller and cheaper than it would he if it had to absorb the mizzen’s sail area. Nor do they take into account that the mizzen prolongs the main’s life by reducing the intensity of the cyclic loading that contributes to metal fatigue. On Sundeer the mizzen is over half the size of the mainsail. This is a big mizzen (20 to 40 percent of main is more typical) for a ketch. But any appreciable mizzen is a lot more than an extra mast stuck in the back of the boat.

The other mizzen virtue has to do with the relationship of the mizzen to the hull. By distributing stress over a wider area, a split rig is kinder to its hull than a monomast. With many boats, this distribution advantage is qualified, since mizzens, at least on ketches, are often reefed or lowered first when the wind comes up, letting the main to deal with heavy weather. This is sometimes done because main and staysails provide more drive than mizzen and staysails, but most often it’s because, on most vessels, weather helm increases sharply with increased heel. Mizzens, being so far aft, only exacerbate weather helm, so down they come. But this is a design flaw in hull, not sail. A balanced hull like Sundeer’s does not suffer hull-induced weather helm as it heels.

And on Sundeer, Dashew has gone a step further, intentionally matching hull and sail plan so that there is always a great deal of weather helm, all of it mizzen-induced. On most vessels this would result in a hard-to-steer boat, but Sundeer has a large balanced spade rudder, so the helm always feels neutral. Why do this? Because a big, properly shaped balanced rudder can provide lift, just like a keel. If it can provide enough lift, you can make the keel smaller and still go to weather well. So Sundeer’s rudder is helping the keel, just as the mizzen is helping the main. The net result is that this 67-foot LOD ketch draws only 6 feet loaded, yet will outpoint many sloops, especially in a breeze, when speed gives the rudder more lift. Balanced spade rudders are generally frowned on by cruisers as fragile, vulnerable things, but Sundeer’s is built around an 8-inch diameter rudder shaft (!), and has a sacrificial “crushable” bottom; it’s extremely unlikely that even a violent grounding would cause significant damage. (Brian’s note: Hot idea, loading up the rudders like we did with asymmetric catamaran hulls to reduce leeway !).

It is unusual to have rig and hull so creatively interlinked, but it’s possible to optimize the performance of any split rig relative to the hull it sits in. On some boats this might involve flatter- or fuller-cut sails, adding a bowsprit, changing mast rake, etc. A qualified rigger or yacht designer can help you with particulars. Meanwhile, I hope this section has given you enough information to extrapolate from, whether it’s for a configuration that will allow you to disconnect a springstay, or to let you see force relationships more clearly, or just as an introduction to the next section.

MAINMAST
Mainmast are more than just great big mizzens. The loads they bear are a whole other order of intensity and complexity…. continued in book....
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Old 15-07-2012, 09:57   #173
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Great thread. I have owned both a ketch and now a cutter.
My plus fir the ketch.
Shorter masts for equal or better sail area. Clears bridges.
Mizzen staysl is too much fun. Beautiful to sail with full genny, main, mizzen staysl and mizzen. That turns heads.
With the mizzen the boat will hold into the wind while coming off anchor or stalled while working.
More options for balanceing sails and helm.
Sail area is broken up and could be more managable. This does not pay out for me as good controls and reefing gear make this near equal for comparison.
Plus for my cutter.
Less points of failure.
Less maintenance.
Points fine
Helm balanced as well if not better then my ketch.

Some of these comparisons are reflecting the design of the boat and quality/ skill of designer.
Random thoughts.
The woodwinds schooners running out of Annapolis have a very versatile rig. They do very well pointing and light air handling.
There was a 2 masted entry in the round the world multi hull challenge. Very high performance. So there's another example of two masts on performance craft. Didn't make it but it was built.
My ketch could whip the tail off some modern boats. Think that I pushed harder and out sailed rather then the boat outperformed. But it still held its own against some modern designs.
Having sailed in a tropical storm with a cutter hind site likes the simplicity of a well balanced cutter. I suppose had it been a ketch we would have used different tactics but i wiuld exoect very little difference. Perhaps having a taller rig gave us air to keep driving the boat at the lower end of the waves.
Not seeing enough to get my hair all knotted up
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Old 15-07-2012, 10:21   #174
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Ketches are outdated, obsolete, archaic designs that belong in the scrap heap. That said, I enjoy mine and it definitely fulfills my needs. When we started looking for a larger boat, I fell in love with the Perry designed Norseman 447, still am. But everyone I saw was $200000 and beat. I ended up with a ketch with more accomadation, in good condition for 1/3 the price! She isn't fast or particularly more comfortable but shes paid for. Thank you all you overinflated sloop lovers for allowing the opportunity to own my boat at a reasonable cash outlay.
fair winds and following seas to all.
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Old 15-07-2012, 12:21   #175
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Whoa!

Some amazing read above! Looks like ketches may be fewer but ketch lovers are many and going strong!

Today as we walked the far beach watching the surfers I suddenly remembered sailing ketch rigged lifeboats in my youth. Man they were difficult to manage under the jib or the mizzen only!

So, my thought is that maybe a disadvantage of a ketch (especially of a ketch trying to become a schooner;-) is that on a sloop you hoist the main and you go, or else you hoist the jib and you go, while on a ketch you may find it more challenging to take off under one sail (I believe then the main would be the sail to be used?).

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Old 15-07-2012, 12:38   #176
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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... on a sloop you hoist the main and you go, or else you hoist the jib and you go, while on a ketch you may find it more challenging to take off under one sail (I believe then the main would be the sail to be used?).
Lazy sailors!



This was not the only sailboat with only the main hoisted seen yesterday under benign conditions.
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Old 15-07-2012, 13:10   #177
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Lazy sailors!



This was not the only sailboat with only the main hoisted seen yesterday under benign conditions.
Now that's just sad no matter what the rig... The job is on a roller furler, how hard can it be to put up!
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Old 15-07-2012, 13:24   #178
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

This is a power boat.

I meant sailing boats.

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Old 15-07-2012, 22:38   #179
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

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Lazy sailors!



This was not the only sailboat with only the main hoisted seen yesterday under benign conditions.
before you go pointing fingers at others, you may want to know, we all get a good chuckle whenever we see your boat on the water.. last comments around the bar were if you were comming or going to or from the dark side and couldnt make up your mind..
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Old 15-07-2012, 22:53   #180
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Re: The Death of the Ketch ?

Barnakiel,
Just to let you know I often hoist the front hankie (jib) first since it's on a furler and have good manuverability as such. But then my rig is heavily weighted to the mainmast, with it's taller wider three sail rig. I don't have a mizzen staysail or a code zero up front though both are on my want list.
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