The Death of the Ketch ?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by micah719

I'm curious as to why Schooners were developed to have the mainmast tallest, and Ketches the foremast. Might go a googling....love digging up history.

Simple-ketches are optimized for sailing downwind and hence carry the tallest mast further forward, so they can carry maximum sail area downwind without unbalancing the helm. Schooners are the opposite, they are optimized for sailing to weather. A schooner doesn't sail DDW as well as a ketch because the mainsail is so far aft, and if you douse it you are limited to the shorter stick, the foremast. But they sail to weather like a scalded cat for the same reason! That's why you will notice all of the ketches that are still produced are marketed for blue water cruising, because it's long been known as one of the best rigs for a tradewind circumnav, which in theory should be mostly downwind.

[MacG]

Schooners are invented by the Dutch, but the real development took place in the US.
It was the prime argument of the coastal pirates and the smaller traders.
To me, it is one of the most beautiful vesels ever created. And they can be pretty fast too.

[micah719]

A lovely little boat with an impressive history:

Origins of the Caledonia Yawl design

And the sailing tips for it are very instructive:

Sailing tips from the Caledonia Yawl, Crazybird

Bingo! I found out why Ketches are Ketchy:

Types of Sailing Rigs and Keels - Gunter Rig - Bermuda Rig - Junk Rig

I'm sticking to the Junk Schooner for plenty of good reasons. I haven't done the detailed numbercrunching and tuning, but 2000 sq ft of sail on 18 tons of long keel/semi full keel might have a surprising turn of speed on certain points of sail. One area I want to investigate is the cambering of Junk sails, the dynamics of the steeply angled top yard, and the possibility of shamelessly plagiarising some ideas from Rogallo airfoils....the rectangular self-inflating fabric wing of the ultralights and long glide-path chutes.

The Dinghy, not sure what rig yet, but the design cues from the Caledonian above inspires me to go for a Junk there too, Ketch or Yawl. Perhaps a windsurf-board to keep the sloopies from keelhauling me, though the square top sail seems to shout loud against the disadvantage of the limits of stayed rigs, and triangular foils. Sloop it up all the same, it's a boat with a stick and some cloth, and it has its merits too. Just not enough for me. The mantra of windward windward windward performance speed go faster can be achieved in other ways and there is more to sailing than speed. That said, my data-mining foray dug up this beauty:

Baltic Yachts to build super-fast 60-metre ketch - Design - SuperyachtTimes.com

Ketch, ketch, ketch me if you caaaaan.......heh heh heh. The Ketch is not dead.

[MacG]

The bigger yachts, due to their LWL are already fast.

There, the designer will look for easy handling in order to minimalise crew on deck.
Regarding the Baltic I see Dijkstra' s signature clearly in the hullshape and probably he designed the rig as well, his specialism.
Jens Cornelsen is a well experienced conductor of building-processes.

[micah719]

Three salient points....the lovely expensive thing is intended to be able to fit under the Bridge of the Americas, and to provide safe and comfortable cruising, and race.

Design Brief:
- The largest ketch which can cross the Panama Canal
- To perform well in inshore and offshore regattas. Pushing the envelope of yacht design and construction
- To provide safe and comfortable cruising, also in light ice conditions
- To have classic appearance above the water line - Interior: Light Weight Interior with foam and honey comb core, classic styled
- Systems: Revolutional drive train and power generating
- In General: Forefront of innovation, not just another large sailing yacht

[MacG]

What is the building material? Normally, yachts of that size are alu build.
Did the principal opt for a lightweight fiberglass construction?
Why did he choose Baltic?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Really? Maybe someone could give you a lesson or two sailing ketches, obviously you have no clue

I have sailed several, but the fact remains pound for pound a sloop will out perform a ketch, whens the last time you saw a competitive club racer in ketch form. And when I talk about club racing I mean cruiser classes, not tricked out sailing machines

That is not to say a well run ketch isn't fast , it's just not a overall better performer then a well run sloop.

As I said, it's really an Aesthetics thing, if you Iike it buy it.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by minaret

Simple-ketches are optimized for sailing downwind and hence carry the tallest mast further forward, so they can carry maximum sail area downwind without unbalancing the helm. Schooners are the opposite, they are optimized for sailing to weather. A schooner doesn't sail DDW as well as a ketch because the mainsail is so far aft, and if you douse it you are limited to the shorter stick, the foremast. But they sail to weather like a scalded cat for the same reason! That's why you will notice all of the ketches that are still produced are marketed for blue water cruising, because it's long been known as one of the best rigs for a tradewind circumnav, which in theory should be mostly downwind.

I would dispute that , ketches are reaching machines. ( if done right) not downwind machines.

Schooners are not windward machines, the mains backwind each other, hence they cannot point as high as any single masted sailing machine. The schooner was also a reaching machine.

And I would agree for looks schooners beat ketches hands down.

Dave

[simonmd]

There are still some beautifull ketch rigged vessels available, pic attached of this lovely Amel 54 that anchored next to me today.

However, these are usualy smaller specialist makers these days and are certainly the top end of the price range. For the mass market, modern materials and even luxuries like electric winches have made it unecconimical and unneccesary to choose a ketch over a conventional sloop, added to the fact that on a sub 45ft boat, deck space is at a premium which a ketch rig takes more of.

[micah719]

MacG:

Not sure about materials of the 60m Ketch....the design brief mentioned light ice capability, not sure if it's reinforced composite or alloy. All the article mentions is that it is for a "well known ocean-racing yachtsman"....and the design was reached via a competition between several designers. I doubt I'll ever rub shoulders with that scene and it doesn't phaze me in the least. Also, in that scene problems are solved by throwing mountains of money at them, which I don't have, so I ransack the fruit of the braincells of others.

So the ketch will probably remain a niche market....viewed as a subset of the whole. But, is this a proper comparison? Is the mass market McYacht appropriate to use as a standard, seeing as how it seems to copycat the giant racers and rely more on marketing and trends than solely on form following function. The "convenience" of being able to buy an off-the-rack fitted out boat that grants instant access to the oceans has good and bad points.

The "types of rigs" link above was useful:

The schooner and the ketch differ in that the main mast on the schooner is taller than the foremast and this rig was developed by the fishing schooners of the Grand Banks. The small mizzen and larger main of the ketch gave the inshore fisherman the correct degree of balance when trawling, above all with the addition of a powerfully large overlapping tow foresail.

Seems the popular rigs are all based on workboats...is there a best rig? No, all have their best points. It would be foolish to throw away the benefits of long experience of people in boats on the ocean. Choose a rig that suits your wishes and enjoy it. The Ketch isn't dead, it's just not experiencing a lemming-like boom.

[goboatingnow]

Your right the ketch rig isn't dead, nor in fact is any rig, but it's heyday is well over.

Dave

[MacG]

It is well accepted that the ketch rig does not bring any great advances over the sloop rig when we talk the smaller boats.

Another issue are the larger yachts. Even today for the more capitalised people crew costs money, lots of money. And the crew of today is demanding. For such yachts you cannot pick up peolple from the street - you need pro' s to do the job properly.

In that particular case I can understand that one looks for easy-going and handling yachts.
60 metres requires a lot. Particularly for a sailing vessel - even if all is hydraulic and/or electric. At least you need 2 shifts if not 3 when you have to apply to IMO ruling.

According to material I believe it must be an alloy type. Carbon and Aramide do not fare well in icy conditions. Neither does FRP, especially in that sort of length.

[micah719]

The Sloop rig is so good for small boats because it came from bermudan dinghies. Sure, the performance of a dinghy...but the limitations of it as well.

The Ketch is so suited for cruisers because it came from inshore fishermen needing room for gear and catch, towing a net, beating off a lee shore in a gale, and ease and economy in replacements and maintenance.

The Schooner seems to have been designed to get its catch back from the Grand Banks before it rotted.

Just how important is windward performance? How much of it is by necessity, and how much by choice? Racing is one thing. Making a passage against contrary wind is another. Sure, in a pinch it might mean beating off a lee shore, but in the really rough weather it was the Colin Archer Ketch and the RNLI Ketches and the fishermen and suchlike that excelled, because their rig kept the heeling moment low, spread the load across two masts and multiple sails, and were balanced and even had enough power to tow. If it really comes to shaving a degree or two to escape the rocks, then I'd be asking how you got that close in the first place, and what is wrong with your boat handling that tacking can't see you clear? A little more patience and caution is affordable for a cruiser, since he isn't on a commercial schedule, neither is he at war.

I'd like to see proper performance comparisons of rigs in their element, so that the ketch isn't rubbished for doing less well at what it was never meant to do, and the sloop isn't pressganged into doing things it might get away with but are taking foolish risks. Otherwise we're reviling a bus because it doesn't do well on the F1 circuit, and the Clubman racer for trying to be an RV.

On the smaller boats (around 30ft or so?), since the ketch is marginal, I'd like to see the comparisons made between the sloop and the cutter. Look out gaffers, storm brewing!

[mrm]

It this Sailing Yacht - Hetairos - Baltic Yachts Ltd - Completed Superyachts on Superyacht Times .com is the finished product, it is in fact a GRP hull.

Corresponds somewhat to this phrase "Baltic Yachts, which had commissioned the 147 feet Reichel/Pugh designed Visione with only 105 t displacement in 2003, has set delivery of this high-tech carbon composite yacht for July 2010." coming from the original link (Baltic Yachts to build super-fast 60-metre ketch - Design - SuperyachtTimes.com )

[micah719]

I've heard of reinforcement used on composite hulls for light ice. Kevlar usually, at the bow and waterline. Through-hulls with a taper so the ice plug squeezes itself out. So, the great expensive beauty is likely a composite. Probably should have guessed when they mentioned foam core bulkheads. Sry, even if it were given me, I'd sell it and get something I like better. As it is, it carries 40 tons of water ballast....wonder how the stability curve looks when the tanks are empty.