The criteria of "blue"

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by FastCruiser

You're not going to like what I say here, and NO, I'm not using the "Skipper" word here, at least not yet.
Yes, many old salts, as myself, (Randy here) have read these books but have also found that as true as they are, they are also false.
There is to much grey area to be exact in any of the information you mention and when someone states its FACT, many "Old Salts" just set back, have another drink of beer and roll their eyes a bit.
Keel hung and skeg rudders can be balanced and I've seen it. By adding more mass to the leading edge of the rudder.
You bring up the Pardeys, and they have a mass amount of knbowledge but I for one know, A newer performance hull will almost always run from its slick and its harder to get it to set still, than take another option.. Its a grey area.
The effects of a hull when healed.. different designes are built based on how the boat sails or is designed to sail..
Our boat is designed to sail at about 12 to 15 degrees, sailing flat on its bottom is like trying to drive a skate board, but at 12 degrees, she locks in solid and screames. its all grey area.
anything you read, take it with a grain of salt, but dont state its fact as someone will prove you wrong.

Now I'll use that skipper word, as after a time sailing different boats, you as a skipper will find a motion you like in a boat along with everything else that and make your own decisions..

Got ya.

The problem here is that you are saying that "there is no knowledge that represents the entire body so give up and go sailing".

Stop reading because what you are reading won't fit in this corner case.

Or... "only read what I recommend because it fits my corner case".

So it is only a book but the Pardeys discuss a strategy. It might not work for your boat, but it may very well work for mine. So should I not read it? I am likely to buy a 1970s-1980s boat because.. well... I don't have a billion dollars to throw at a "newer performance hull". So you basically tell me to not read stuff that in fact (more) exactly fits my personal scenario.

I will almost certainly be buying a boat designed well before my 25 year old book was even published. And given the prices of "newer performance hulls" that is likely true for a lot of us.

I do think it is useful for you to come in here and explain how and under what conditions this stuff doesn't work. That is useful. As opposed to "that is a 25 year old book and is useless", which is in itself... useless.

[paulanthony]

What it is like trying to talk to an "old salty" - Sometimes (Joking)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EfW9znJYjw

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by FastCruiser

Another grey area, as a performance yacht will NOT lay a-hull.. the underwater design makes the boat want to sail off the slick. without the sails up.
you see it mentioned often on the forum as folks as how to keep their boat in one place while at anchor in a current.
Let me re-phrase that, its hard as hell to get a performance hull to "hove-to" as it wants to sail out of its slick.. and another grey area, you can do it, but as the conditions change, you have to change the way the boat sets against the para-anchor.

I understand. The problem here is that there a BILLION old boats out there for sale, most of them are not (I am assuming here) "performance yachts". In fact it would be useful for you to describe "performance yachts" so that I could rationally discover whether the boat I'm buying falls into that category.

I do not want to imply that you are not correct, just that you are painting the entire world into a "can't use it because of the performance hull" thing. I suspect that is not true, nor even close to true. It is just true for whatever boats have this "performance" hull thingie.

An advantage of fiberglass is that it lives almost forever. So old boats live on and on and on and on. And tend to sail just as well (or poorly) 30 years later as they did the year they splashed.

Lots of old boats out there FastCruiser.

[FastCruiser]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Got ya.

The problem here is that you are saying that "there is no knowledge that represents the entire body so give up and go sailing".

Stop reading because what you are reading won't fit in this corner case.

Or... "only read what I recommend because it fits my corner case".

So it is only a book but the Pardeys discuss a strategy. It might not work for your boat, but it may very well work for mine. So should I not read it? I am likely to buy a 1970s-1980s boat because.. well... I don't have a billion dollars to throw at a "newer performance hull". So you basically tell me to not read stuff that in fact (more) exactly fits my personal scenario.

I will almost certainly be buying a boat designed well before my 25 year old book was even published. And given the prices of "newer performance hulls" that is likely true for a lot of us.

I do think it is useful for you to come in here and explain how and under what conditions this stuff doesn't work. That is useful. As opposed to "that is a 25 year old book and is useless", which is in itself... useless.

Ok lets say 25 year old boat.. if you buy a full keel, with a barn door rudder, yes, the information the pardeys give is dead right, but if you buy a mid 80 Beneteau FIRST 42, (The boat I own) you'll find the information is of little value.
now i love the information that comes from the Pardeys books and Lynn has a way of writing that keeps your attention,
and the full keel, barn door rudder, dont think they are slugs or slow as many of the yacht clubs still race the 5.5s and Echels.. very fast full keel boats..
all I'm say is that there are a-lot of "grey" areas in the books..
Read them all, I do, but mostly for information from different people and how they see it. You might see the color of blue with a bit of green where I see green with a little blue, the books are the same, as its the openion of one person and how they see the issue.

And yes, go sailing..........

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

That moniker derives from the original days of the CRUISING WORLD Bulletin Board, back when Herb was the editor of the mag, and basically served as the 'moderator' of the forum... I got into a pissing match with some lurker there, and he branded me the "#1 Gasbag of the CWBB", and, somehow, it stuck... :-)



I'm the same, 3 of my Alltime Dream Boats from afar have always been the Alden 44, the Cambria 44/46, and the F&C 44...

But upon having the chance to finally go aboard each, they became lowered a bit in my estimation :-) I have no doubt they all sail like a dream, and I'd still own any of them in a heartbeat if I could, but they really are a bit cut up and relatively 'cramped' down below...

If there is one thing I could request re many of the OPB's I get to sail, it would be a Moratorium on Pedestal NavPod Proliferation... It's ridicuous the extent that some of these Erector Set Clusters are being taken to these days...

I loved this Cabo Rico 42, a wonderful all around boat... But this array at the helm, unbelievable... This is the eye-level view forward, when seated behind the wheel atop a couple of additional cushions. If I lined it up just right, I had a clear view of the horizon thru that 3/4" slit between the plotter and the bank of instruments :-)





Absolutely mind-boggling, the extent to which this cluster-f impeded the utility of the cockpit... And at night, fuggeddabouddit, the only solution when you actually wanted to be able to see, would be to simply drape a beach towel over the whole stoopid thing :-)









But again, based on what I'm seeing out there these days, that's probably just me...

Or, perhaps the distortion of a wide angle lens... :-)

At least they've made an effort to aggregate their helm.

So many cockpits are strewn with gauges, screens, radios, etc that can't be reached without leaving the helm.



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[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

What it is like trying to talk to an "old salty" - Sometimes (Joking)

Oh man, how appropriate. After this thread I feel like I have been lashed with the salt brine and sliced into stockings.

[FastCruiser]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

I understand. The problem here is that there a BILLION old boats out there for sale, most of them are not (I am assuming here) "performance yachts". In fact it would be useful for you to describe "performance yachts" so that I could rationally discover whether the boat I'm buying falls into that category.

I do not want to imply that you are not correct, just that you are painting the entire world into a "can't use it because of the performance hull" thing. I suspect that is not true, nor even close to true. It is just true for whatever boats have this "performance" hull thingie.

An advantage of fiberglass is that it lives almost forever. So old boats live on and on and on and on. And tend to sail just as well (or poorly) 30 years later as they did the year they splashed.

Lots of old boats out there FastCruiser.

I didnt say you couldnt use a performance hull, I do and have been cruising for the last 12 years on one. and here it falls back on the skipper, as what do you want out of a boat. and many older full keel boats are performance yachts.
All I was saying is that there is NO standard way of thinking that any two boats will sail or react the same, different boats, different keels, different rudders, different sails, sloops, cutters, staysails, furrlers, double enders, overhangs, cat riggs, and a mass amount of other options that make a boat handle different in the hands of different people..
You take all the information you've read, apply all the you've learned in sail handeling, go out on a couple hundred different boat over a number of years and maybe just by chance, you'll come to a conclusion of what you as a skipper might want in a boat,, and thats today, tomorow you might change your mind.

[Tayana42]

JW, I admire your thoughtful postings and the way you are learning about boat design before you buy.

I also think you have found excellent reference books in Characteristics and Perry. The Pardeys have a great deal to offer in philosophy and in technique. Good Old Boat magazine has run a series of articles about the history of boat design. In the current issue Bob Mazza writes about the development of the fin keel and spade rudder two centuries ago.

It is true that different strategies work for different boats and in different conditions. It is also true that knowing how your specific boat behaves in a variety of conditions is an important aspect of seamanship that can only come with experience.

After owning 5 or 6 boats (and numerous dinghies, kayaks, canoes) I've chosen a moderately heavy boat with a moderately long fin keel and skeg hung rudder. It has high quality hardware, ports, hatches, spars and over sized rigging. It is cutter rigged, not a racer but reasonable fast for a cruiser. I'm not saying this is the best design choice for anyone else, but it makes me happy and I think it makes me and my wife as safe as possible.


S/V B'Shert

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

At least they've made an effort to aggregate their helm.

So many cockpits are strewn with gauges, screens, radios, etc that can't be reached without leaving the helm.

That is true... However, as El Pinguino noted elsewhere, "Moderation in all things..."

Kinda defeats the purpose of a compass, for instance, when it can't be read while standing at the helm of this 'Globe-Girdler'...

:-)

[FastCruiser]

Now I'm going to take it back a few pages and mention blue water "criteria" .The criteria can mean a different item to different people.
Some may say they want a full keel wine-glass style, (like the Pardeys boat) as its a proven design, sure it it,
But unlike the Pardeys, i kinda would like a motor, and a little more of the comforts of cruising, does that mean what I'm looking for falls outside the Criteria, For some maybe, but not for myself...
Is a Catalina 27 outside the criteria for a Blue water boat, it is for me but for some, maybe not.
Its up to the skipper and his ability to determine the criteria of the boat he sees fit for blue water use.

[jwcolby54]

I'm off reading the various opinions about heaving to. With various keels. As always seems to be the case, opinions all over the map. The primary opinion seems to be that

1) To find out on your boat you have to try it in heavy weather
2) More experience may make the technique work. Or may not.
2) Some boats (even fin keels) are easier than others.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

[FastCruiser]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

I'm off reading the various opinions about heaving to. With various keels. As always seems to be the case, opinions all over the map. The primary opinion seems to be that

1) To find out on your boat you have to try it in heavy weather
2) More experience may make the technique work. Or may not.
2) Some boats (even fin keels) are easier than others.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

Good on you.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by FastCruiser

But unlike the Pardeys, i kinda would like a motor, and a little more of the comforts of cruising

LOL I hear ya. I want:

1) A boat that will stay absolutely dry inside as it rolls 180. Oh and nothing flies around while that is happening.
2) Rolls back up instantly
3) Can be steered and the sails managed from inside, buttoned down.
4) Has an autopilot that I can key in (from my ipod) my destination, and it will select a sail plan and run up the sails for me, raise the anchor and head out.
5) Will use geosats, sonar and chart data to never go aground.
6) Weather electronics that will avoid the storms, ALL the time.
7) Will sail into port, pull up to the dock, tie me up, and take my paperwork into the proper authorities, having figured out where those authorities are.

All while I sit on board drinking my iced tea (I don't embibe) and enjoying the sunny day.

What I am going to get:

1) A boat almost as old as I am
2) A keel and rudder that comes with the boat I buy, not some ideal
3) A ton of fix it items
4) An electronics package that only works intermittently
5) Lost as often as not.
6) grounded all too often.

7) TONS of fun!!!

Because in spite of what I actually end up with, it's about the sailing. I will get what I get and, with luck, love it to pieces as many here obviously do whatever they have.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

LOL I hear ya. I want:

1) A boat that will stay absolutely dry inside as it rolls 180. Oh and nothing flies around while that is happening.
2) Rolls back up instantly
3) Can be steered and the sails managed from inside, buttoned down.
4) Has an autopilot that I can key in (from my ipod) my destination, and it will select a sail plan and run up the sails for me, raise the anchor and head out.
5) Will use geosats, sonar and chart data to never go aground.
6) Weather electronics that will avoid the storms, ALL the time.
7) Will sail into port, pull up to the dock, tie me up, and take my paperwork into the proper authorities, having figured out where those authorities are.

All while I sit on board drinking my iced tea (I don't embibe) and enjoying the sunny day.

What I am going to get:

1) A boat almost as old as I am
2) A keel and rudder that comes with the boat I buy, not some ideal
3) A ton of fix it items
4) An electronics package that only works intermittently
5) Lost as often as not.
6) grounded all too often.

7) TONS of fun!!!

Because in spite of what I actually end up with, it's about the sailing. I will get what I get and, with luck, love it to pieces as many here obviously do whatever they have.

What's your ideal make and model at the moment from all that you have learnt?

[jwcolby54]

BTW, one of the things that the pardeys mention is that if you just continue to sail "downwind", you just stay in the storm longer. "Heaving to" if it works, allows the storm to go past you and leaves you behind it when it is over.