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Old 27-04-2015, 19:50   #76
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
... but every year hundreds of cheaply built boats are safely crossing oceans and for the most part, except for the odd exception they get to where they are going.
LOL, just because they get there doesn't in any way shape or form imply safely. Kind of like saying that there are millions of folks "Safely" driving while texting. It may in fact simply imply luck. It obviously implies that they didn't run into weather that (could have) killed them.

And the odd exception all too often dies / disappears. It is quite alright with me if YOU die / disappear, not so much if I die!
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Old 27-04-2015, 19:57   #77
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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This is all well and good but would you not agree that there should be a blue boat specification set down. If not then we are are just dealing in shades of grey or plotting points on venn diagrams for best compromise all the time. If you can afford to buy a custom designed boat then you obviously can set your own specification but if you are buying semi custom or an off the shelf "blue water" boat should we not be able expect some common standard of conformity that we can rely on. Surely we should have some some basic index that definitively quantifies what a blue water boat is that enables us to measure what is being sold to us. No?
Well there is the CE standard which covers quite a bit. Many don't consider it a very high standard but it is a standard and most builders use this standard when building yachts. Keep in mind that 90% of the boats rarely even leave the dock so it doesn't make economic sense to have these standards set too high. I guess the next question is what do you call Blue Water? Crossing oceans in the Trade wind belt or sailing west in the roaring forties??
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:02   #78
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I think the Oyster 46 photo is a good example of modern yachts designed for the charter market and the boat show, and that probably includes every current production yacht. It must be incredibly hard to sell a design based on strength (read heavy and expensive to build), ultimate stability (read narrow and cramped) and with ocean-going port-lights (dark and gloomy inside). I guess that's why no one in the business of selling the dream wants a definition of 'blue-water'.
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:11   #79
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Who should set this standard? How will it keep up with changing technology? Will all who set out be required to have boats that meet this standard? What happens the first time someone sets out in a Certified Blue Water Boat and doesn't make it? Shall we have them pay back any rescue fees because it was obviously the sailor's fault, since the boat was CBWB? Or shall we sue whoever decided that it was a CBWB boat?
Well, really it is up to us and people like us. I think we can say that blue boat design is about survivability. You would take the core elements that contribute to the blue water ideal and turn them into 4 column, 5 or 6 columns or however many core elements there are that contribute to a "blue water" boat. The mid point on all columns would be where the minimum for a blue water boat would be and for it to be a true blue water boat all the core columns must be above the median position. Beyond this it becomes an issue of specialisation with bias in given areas so one column could rate higher than another based on specialised intended purpose. Imagine an analogue graphic equaliser with sliders. This information could easily be understood by a consumer. Any plot under the midway point classes the boat as a non blue water vessel.
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:15   #80
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I think the Oyster 46 photo is a good example of modern yachts designed for the charter market and the boat show, and that probably includes every current production yacht. It must be incredibly hard to sell a design based on strength (read heavy and expensive to build), ultimate stability (read narrow and cramped) and with ocean-going port-lights (dark and gloomy inside). I guess that's why no one in the business of selling the dream wants a definition of 'blue-water'.
Now THAT says it all. We SAY we want a bluewater boat, but we don't want to buy one.

Of course there actually is a market for a bluewater boat but it is pretty darned small. The true adventurer not too concerned with the ultimate in convenience and comfort.

But not enough to get past the cost of design and construction.

Which leaves those who want that sifting through the "least evil".
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:17   #81
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Well, really it is up to us and people like us. I think we can say that blue boat design is about survivability. You would take the core elements that contribute to the blue water ideal and turn them into 4 column, 5 or 6 columns or however many core elements there are that contribute to a "blue water" boat. The mid point on all columns would be where the minimum for a blue water boat would be and for it to be a true blue water boat all the core columns must be above the median position. Beyond this it becomes an issue of specialisation with bias in given areas so one column could rate higher than another based on specialised intended purpose. Imagine an analogue graphic equaliser with sliders. This information could easily be understood by a consumer. Any plot under the midway point classes the boat as a non blue water vessel.
So, if it is that important to you, and it is up to you, create the website as resource. There. Done.

The boatbuilding industry has no reason to pursue this. As long as rescues don't exceed mandatory training days, the average government has no reason to pursue it...to paraphrase your comments, only the consumer cares and there are so few consumers who care that it is up to the consumers to figure it out for themselves. Which is pretty much the system already in place, just without your fancy equalizer.
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:25   #82
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Hmmm, thrown across the ballroom on an Oyster 46, eh?

Wow, there's a shocker, difficult to imagine how that could have happened...

:-)


Jon,

Good photo to illustrate the point.
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:26   #83
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Well there is the CE standard which covers quite a bit. Many don't consider it a very high standard but it is a standard and most builders use this standard when building yachts. Keep in mind that 90% of the boats rarely even leave the dock so it doesn't make economic sense to have these standards set too high. I guess the next question is what do you call Blue Water? Crossing oceans in the Trade wind belt or sailing west in the roaring forties??
I have thought about this and to me it is survivability.. Scroll down through the threads and catch glimpse of my words describing a plot. Maybe if you see this you will have to scroll up actually.

P.S I agree with your point about the CE standard and that's the problem. Everything gets qualified with an A rating and it really tells the consumer nothing.
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Old 27-04-2015, 20:45   #84
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The difference should be obvious... Go visit a boat show and tour the various offerings.


Video of three guys crapping their foulies in 30 knot winds on a non-blue water boat.



Video of a blue water boat in 55 knot winds.
Ok, first time poster, but avid sailer wanna be and have taken some certifcation.

One of the biggest differences I see in this post is that the captains differ. One has prepared his boat, and reduced canvas. The other has not.

Please feel free to lambast me, but that is a pretty obvious comparison. The "Non-Blue Water" boat is carrying way too much sail for the conditions.
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Old 27-04-2015, 21:53   #85
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I happened across a guy a few years ago in the northwest talking blue water boats and he was looking for the ultimate "Blue Water Boat". and had read a good number of books from slocum to pardey and knew ALL the numbers.
Turn the page almost 10 years now that we've been on the water enjoying the cruising lifestyle,
And just by chance happened to spend some time in the same marina and who do we happen to come across, the same person we ran across 10 years prior,
But whats really sad, He's still looking for that ultimate BlueWater boat.

I see some of the same information comming from many of those on this thread, who have all the numbers but very little real cruising experance.
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Old 27-04-2015, 23:01   #86
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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And just by chance happened to spend some time in the same marina and who do we happen to come across, the same person we ran across 10 years prior,
But whats really sad, He's still looking for that ultimate BlueWater boat.
As has often been pointed out, it is quite OK to go cruising in your bathtub. It probably won't sink. Or might not sink. And if you never take it out of the marina it is definitely ok.

Ya might want something a little more better if you intend to sail over to the bahamas, but even there, you don't need much. Your bathtub with some high walls and a keel glued on might get ya there.

I have ZERO sailing experience. I haven't bought a boat yet. But I haven't collected the money and selected the boat. It's not about intellectual gridlock.

And unlike some (most?), this really does matter to me. I have every intention of learning to sail, practice, practice, practice. But I also intend to someday (5 years from now) sail off down to South America. Take a left turn and sail around and down the east coast, and then up the Amazon River. Then down and visit Argentina for awhile.

And here's where it gets tricky. I fully expect to sail around Tierra Del Fuego. In case you haven't looked, that is pretty darned south. Doing that in my bathtub with high walls and a keel glued on is decidedly unwise.

I have no way to evaluate the sailing experience of those in this and other threads poo pooing looking for a "blue water boat". I suspect that at least some of these folks have never sailed around the southern point of South America or the horn of Africa. A whole ton of them have expressly said "don't go in dangerous waters". Perhaps they sail back and forth around the islands down in the carribean and pat themselves on the back for all their "blue water sailing" that they survived. And if that is all they ever want to do, then buying a boat with a ballroom is a decidedly safe thing to do, comfortable, easy, and who cares about anything else?

But when I am ready, mentally and physically, I want my boat to be ready as well. I can pretty much tell you it won't have a ballroom. And it is quite OK to want to choose a good boat for my specific purpose, just as you have chosen the right boat for your specific purpose.

I have at least obtained references for books to read which might point me in the right direction.
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Old 27-04-2015, 23:48   #87
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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.......And here's where it gets tricky. I fully expect to sail around Tierra Del Fuego. In case you haven't looked, that is pretty darned south. Doing that in my bathtub with high walls and a keel glued on is decidedly unwise.....
FWIW ... lots of assorted production boats pass through Tierra del Fuego , I've even come across an engineless H28 . There are also a good number of 'expedition boats' working out of Williams.

All sorts of boats are lost down there.... a CF member in a 'Blue Water' boat about a year ago, a solo yachtsman on a Mini Transat in about 2006, a Polish charter aka 'expedition' aka 'blue water' boat abandoned by her skipper ( who was single handed at the time ) east of Puerto Toro in , I think, 2008 or 9.
Another Polish charter aka 'expedition' aka 'blue water' boat driven ashore in an anchorage near the eastern end of TdF with the loss of her skipper and mate in 2010/11. A steel NZ boat abandoned by her skipper just north of Estrecho de la Maire when he was too exhausted to continue ( 2009). In the same period I can only think , apart from the mini transat, of two other 'production boats' that were lost...one in the same blow as the mini transat.
This doesn't include yachts lost or badly damaged offshore NW of the Horn.

Its not just the boat that matters.... but best your keel isn't just glued on
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Old 28-04-2015, 04:55   #88
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Ok, first time poster, but avid sailer wanna be and have taken some certifcation.

One of the biggest differences I see in this post is that the captains differ. One has prepared his boat, and reduced canvas. The other has not.

Please feel free to lambast me, but that is a pretty obvious comparison. The "Non-Blue Water" boat is carrying way too much sail for the conditions.
May I ask why you feel the first boat is non blue water?. It is a little out of control but looks like they are in race mode and having some fun.

The yachts are on diff points of sail and the latter which is running in 50 k would probably also be looking precarious if it was on a close hauled tack.

I read the comment thread for the second video and it was mentioned that they had to run the engine to keep the boat in trim for fear of broaching as in the wave trough the boat was loosing momentum and was then heaved with too much pressure on either rear quarter because the head sail was not able to do its job maintaining a downwind heading as it had also stalled in the trough.

What if the engine had failed at night, a time when the helmsman would have had the most difficult job reading the the waves?

Not sure why they were not using a drogue. Maybe a drogue would have given them no headway at all but my point is that it seems to be a bad mark against very heavy boats and undermines their "blue water" credentials if they can't maintain a squared heading simply because their momentum runs out inside a wave trough all the time.
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Old 28-04-2015, 04:59   #89
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Dear Paulanthony,

This is a complex topic. Today, most boats are designed towards a particular end. fast racing in a particular location; chartering in coastal waters etc...... each suited for its purpose. They are also built to a cost and as a consequence are scrimped on in structure and fitted with inferior equipment largely by builders and designers who are generally not avid seamen.

There are two web sites: morganscloud.com & Setsail.com that provide a most balanced answer to your question. In the case of the former site they specify an "Adventure 40"....a 40 page book. (free). In the latter site Tom Dashew designed and sailed yachts. Today, Tom is a great deal older and now designs and builds trans-oceanic FSB's (fast patrol boats) fitted out as private yachts 65' being the smallest but what is of interest is that both answers your question in coming to a "Blue water" yacht conclusion and building THE design.

I wish you all the best,

Erich
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Old 28-04-2015, 06:12   #90
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I have zero blue water experience, but I remember someone else on these forums once said that if you took everyone's blue water advice and put it together, you would end up in a custom aluminum yacht with no windows at all, and few amenities, if any. Who is going to enjoy spending time at sea in that?

Personally, I would guess that you would need two things at a minimum: watermaker or very large water tanks, and a spare rudder.

If you want a 100% blue water boat, get a submarine. No worries about the weather in that.
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