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Old 27-06-2015, 18:01   #781
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Send me that Muckle link you are reading...
Post #738, Muckle said "...I am aware though that as TeddyDiver says there are indeed full epoxy/glass layups out there, and they are tougher than nails."

I'm guessing from this that it's high-end boats that are of most interest, not the dogs that I'm trying to separate from those still with a good life expectancy ahead and lower maintenance bills.
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Old 27-06-2015, 18:18   #782
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Post #738, Muckle said "...I am aware though that as TeddyDiver says there are indeed full epoxy/glass layups out there, and they are tougher than nails."

I'm guessing from this that it's high-end boats that are of most interest, not the dogs that I'm trying to separate from those still with a good life expectancy ahead and lower maintenance bills.
Sorry Fella. Thought you were referring to some external web source.. You meant Muckle on here.. Doh!
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Old 27-06-2015, 19:29   #783
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I am always heartened when I hear people with good reports to tell about wood/epoxy construction.

I had a sneaky look at your boat and it has a bucket load of character. Looks a great cruiser. Love the interior.

So Jim, what are the foibles if any that you come across maintaining a wooden boat over a glass/metal one?

Do you have to do much different to look after a wooden boat?
G'Day Paul,

IMO, the epoxy/glass/cedar strip plank hull has the lowest maintenance issues of any material. The epoxy and glass inside and out means no worries about worm attack, osmosis blistering or dry rot, to say nothing of rust or other corrosive attacks. Other than normal anti-fouling, the hull has had no maintenance since I purchased her in 2003.

Our fin keel is a steel shell, and that has had some issues with paint blistering. I now believe that the Jotun Zinc-Epoxy mastic that was sprayed onto fresh sandblasted steel in 2003 was the wrong coating for underwater usage... how late we get smart! i'm now faced with sandblasting it again and reapplying all the coats and then refairing it... not an appealing prospect when I reallly want to get offshore soon.

There have been some statements about difficulty of repair of wood-epoxy hulls, and i have no experience with cold-molded construction. However, a few months ago we were T-boned whilst at anchor in Tasmania, and the offending 40+ foot boat had a big bow roller structure acting as a ram. It punched two holes about 3/8" x 2 1/2" in two different places (hit us twice for good measure). It penetrated through the external glass and about 2/3 of the way through the 25mm planking, but did not disturb the bond between timber and the inner glass. Repair consisted of scarfing out the damaged planks with a 10:1 scarf on each side and epoxying in a graving block, followed up by a layer of glass, epoxy hi-build and fairing before topcoating. The shipwright who did the job reckoned it as strong as original, and it is invisible to the eye. Is that harder than repairing GRP? I dunno, but it isn't a big deal for this sort of damage. And considering that the offending boat hit us making about three knots with the entire impact concentrated on those 3/8 x 2 1/2 inch areas, the hull stood up marvelously well. Had we been steel it would have likely only required a bit of bog and some paint, but then there ore other things to worry about!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 27-06-2015, 20:01   #784
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I suspect Muckle is looking at top-of-the-range while I'm searching bottom-of-the-market, so my reason for preferring solid fi-glass is longevity of older yachts: too many balsa-cored decks fail, an expensive business. I don't know enough about core below waterline so maybe others can discuss, but closed-cell is not immune to failure. Once the outer layers separate from the core, most of the strength is gone, and the movement will likely degrade the core. I've also seen ccfoam-cored frames soak up diesel until completely saturated, adding tons of weight to a hull.

Wood-epoxy has advantages - it's very easy to carry out repairs for one thing - so I'm still considering all options.
If you are considering an older vessel maybe solid glass is a good option.

However use of cores have moved on in the last 20 years and if building a new vessel now corecell is a great choice for some of the reasons posted by paul anthony.
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Old 27-06-2015, 20:06   #785
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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G'Day Paul,

IMO, the epoxy/glass/cedar strip plank hull has the lowest maintenance issues of any material. The epoxy and glass inside and out means no worries about worm attack, osmosis blistering or dry rot, to say nothing of rust or other corrosive attacks. Other than normal anti-fouling, the hull has had no maintenance since I purchased her in 2003.

Our fin keel is a steel shell, and that has had some issues with paint blistering. I now believe that the Jotun Zinc-Epoxy mastic that was sprayed onto fresh sandblasted steel in 2003 was the wrong coating for underwater usage... how late we get smart! i'm now faced with sandblasting it again and reapplying all the coats and then refairing it... not an appealing prospect when I reallly want to get offshore soon.

There have been some statements about difficulty of repair of wood-epoxy hulls, and i have no experience with cold-molded construction. However, a few months ago we were T-boned whilst at anchor in Tasmania, and the offending 40+ foot boat had a big bow roller structure acting as a ram. It punched two holes about 3/8" x 2 1/2" in two different places (hit us twice for good measure). It penetrated through the external glass and about 2/3 of the way through the 25mm planking, but did not disturb the bond between timber and the inner glass. Repair consisted of scarfing out the damaged planks with a 10:1 scarf on each side and epoxying in a graving block, followed up by a layer of glass, epoxy hi-build and fairing before topcoating. The shipwright who did the job reckoned it as strong as original, and it is invisible to the eye. Is that harder than repairing GRP? I dunno, but it isn't a big deal for this sort of damage. And considering that the offending boat hit us making about three knots with the entire impact concentrated on those 3/8 x 2 1/2 inch areas, the hull stood up marvelously well. Had we been steel it would have likely only required a bit of bog and some paint, but then there ore other things to worry about!

Cheers,

Jim
Interesting post Jim.

In the past I have ignored considering of catamarans built with cedar epoxy strip planking but you post suggests I should look at them more closely if I can find a good design well built. Thanks. A good test you unfortunately had.
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Old 28-06-2015, 05:39   #786
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Our fin keel is a steel shell, and that has had some issues with paint blistering. I now believe that the Jotun Zinc-Epoxy mastic that was sprayed onto fresh sandblasted steel in 2003 was the wrong coating for underwater usage... how late we get smart! i'm now faced with sandblasting it again and reapplying all the coats and then refairing it... not an appealing prospect when I reallly want to get offshore soon.
What makes you feel the zinc epoxy was the wrong approach? How is it failing?

I presume you top coated it its some other epoxy?

I ask because I am climbing a steep steel paint learning curve myself and am struggling to learn. I've been using Ameron products.

I am deeply frustrated by the conflicting advice I get even from professionals from the same company. I.e., use zinc epoxy, don't use zinc epoxy. The perpondernce of advice does seem to go with zinc, and apparently so does the USCG.

However I am having troubles myself.
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Old 28-06-2015, 05:45   #787
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
What makes you feel the zinc epoxy was the wrong approach? How is it failing?

I presume you top coated it its some other epoxy?

I ask because I am climbing a steep steel paint learning curve myself and am struggling to learn. I've been using Ameron products.

I am deeply frustrated by the conflicting advice I get even from professionals from the same company. I.e., use zinc epoxy, don't use zinc epoxy. The perpondernce of advice does seem to go with zinc, and apparently so does the USCG.

However I am having troubles myself.
I thought zinc epoxy was used on steel for corrosion protection (the zinc being self-sacrificial), not "growth" protection.
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Old 28-06-2015, 06:16   #788
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I suspect Muckle is looking at top-of-the-range while I'm searching bottom-of-the-market, so my reason for preferring solid fi-glass is longevity of older yachts: too many balsa-cored decks fail, an expensive business. I don't know enough about core below waterline so maybe others can discuss, but closed-cell is not immune to failure. Once the outer layers separate from the core, most of the strength is gone, and the movement will likely degrade the core. I've also seen ccfoam-cored frames soak up diesel until completely saturated, adding tons of weight to a hull.

Wood-epoxy has advantages - it's very easy to carry out repairs for one thing - so I'm still considering all options.
I found this that you may enjoy reading. Its from a surveyor who is anti foam core but seems quite smitten with core-cell. However he implies the nemesis of even core-cell is hydraulic erosion so for sure build quality if using core-cell below the water line is absolutely critical.

ATC Core-Cell: A Foaming Solution? by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor
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Old 28-06-2015, 08:52   #789
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
The high failure rate for balsa cored decks is likely due to the dozens if not hundreds of penetrations in the typical cruising boat deck... many oof which are likely to be done by unskilled owners.

Cored hulls on the other hand have few penetrations, and they are likely done by the builder rather than an amateur. Failure is still possible, but far less likely than in the case of a deck.

In both the case of cored and non-cored hulls, the real factor is in the skill of design and construction. When those factors are well done the result is good, but either sort of construction is vulnerable to poor practice.

Jim

PS
As the owner of a strip-planked wood-epoxy hull, I'm convinced that it is an excellent choice. Ours is now 25 years of age, has done well over 100K miles and is in excellent condition throughout. No pox, no rust, no rot, still very fair. The bolt on keel (oh, horrors) is attached to a massive internal H-beam that runs from forward of the mast step to aft of the engine beds. Stronger than hell...
When I was researching our next boat I seriously looked at J-Boats cruising models (J40-46). What I found was quite a few examples of wet decks AND hulls. The deck problems were probably due to improper modifications, however some of the hull problems were due to bad build/design. I found at least one boatyard link showing major rebuilding of the hull coring.
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Old 28-06-2015, 08:54   #790
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Pacific Sea Craft builds solid cored hulls, also did it that way when the factory was in California.

Valiants were built that way up through 2011 in Texas.

Island Packets are built in Fla. with solid hull layups.

Catalina Yachts build their boats with solid layup hulls, in Ca.
PSC also offers cored hulls as an option.
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Old 28-06-2015, 15:26   #791
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
What makes you feel the zinc epoxy was the wrong approach? How is it failing?

I presume you top coated it its some other epoxy?

I ask because I am climbing a steep steel paint learning curve myself and am struggling to learn. I've been using Ameron products.

I am deeply frustrated by the conflicting advice I get even from professionals from the same company. I.e., use zinc epoxy, don't use zinc epoxy. The perpondernce of advice does seem to go with zinc, and apparently so does the USCG.

However I am having troubles myself.
It does seem difficult to get good advice on this subject. My current thinking has been influenced by our years of poor performance, as noted, and the following incident:

While on the hard in Hobart two years ago, I was staring at my keel with its usual lot of blistered paint and small bare spots when a chap wandered up and took one look. " Bet you have zinc based paint under there" he said. Some chat revealed that he worked in a shipyard that dealt daily with steel ship hulls, and that this was a common symptom. He said that the Jotun Zinc-Epoxy Mastic was extremely good above the water line, but not below. He didn't offer any explanation, just experience.

Subsequently I have spoken to others with similar experience to mine. I'm not convinced, but I really am tired of the failing paint and the resulting loss of antifouling in spots. I am dreading the sandblast/repaint/refair process, both from a fiscal and an inconvenience consideration, and would happily entertain other ideas!!

There are lots of steel boat owners here on CF, so all you guys 'fess up: what paint system do you use below the water line?

Jim

I note that I failed to answer some of y our questions...

It fails by small parts becoming unbonded from the steel and blistering up, eventually failing and falling off, carrying all outer coatings with it.

The Zinc Epoxy was sprayed onto freshly sandblasted steel, then top coated with two coats of Hi-build epoxy primer, then eoxy based fairing compound, another coat of hibuild and finally various layers of antifouling. During the years of failing problems, further layers of hibuild have been applied, which have not helped at all, possibly hindered the system... lots of free advice offered by yard workers in various venues.
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Old 28-06-2015, 16:07   #792
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
It does seem difficult to get good advice on this subject. My current thinking has been influenced by our years of poor performance, as noted, and the following incident:

While on the hard in Hobart two years ago, I was staring at my keel with its usual lot of blistered paint and small bare spots when a chap wandered up and took one look. " Bet you have zinc based paint under there" he said. Some chat revealed that he worked in a shipyard that dealt daily with steel ship hulls, and that this was a common symptom. He said that the Jotun Zinc-Epoxy Mastic was extremely good above the water line, but not below. He didn't offer any explanation, just experience.

Subsequently I have spoken to others with similar experience to mine. I'm not convinced, but I really am tired of the failing paint and the resulting loss of antifouling in spots. I am dreading the sandblast/repaint/refair process, both from a fiscal and an inconvenience consideration, and would happily entertain other ideas!!

There are lots of steel boat owners here on CF, so all you guys 'fess up: what paint system do you use below the water line?

Jim

I note that I failed to answer some of y our questions...

It fails by small parts becoming unbonded from the steel and blistering up, eventually failing and falling off, carrying all outer coatings with it.

The Zinc Epoxy was sprayed onto freshly sandblasted steel, then top coated with two coats of Hi-build epoxy primer, then eoxy based fairing compound, another coat of hibuild and finally various layers of antifouling. During the years of failing problems, further layers of hibuild have been applied, which have not helped at all, possibly hindered the system... lots of free advice offered by yard workers in various venues.
Maybe your prep is wrong. I read this and it implies a surface can still be contaminated even after blasting.

http://www.international-marine.com/...reparation.pdf
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Old 28-06-2015, 16:45   #793
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Maybe your prep is wrong....
But read this part again:
"I was staring at my keel with its usual lot of blistered paint and small bare spots when a chap wandered up and took one look. "Bet you have zinc based paint under there" he said. Some chat revealed that he worked in a shipyard that dealt daily with steel ship hulls, and that this was a common symptom. He said that the Jotun Zinc-Epoxy Mastic was extremely good above the water line, but not below."

That doesn't sound like a prep problem - more a materials problem.
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Old 28-06-2015, 17:19   #794
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Maybe your prep is wrong. I read this and it implies a surface can still be contaminated even after blasting.

http://www.international-marine.com/...reparation.pdf
Yes, that is certainly a possibility, but one that is difficult to assess. In my case, the blasting and subsequent painting were done by a professional from the Harwood Slipway... folks who deal with small ships and fishing boats on a regular basis. I didn't even see the steel after blasting and before painting, for it was all tented up and I was busy dealing with a surveyor at the time. Even a knowledgeable owner must at times trust the folks he hires to do their jobs competently... and that can be a real stretch of credulity!

I read through the international manual quickly, and that tome is fairly dense with jargon and ISO standards and such. Pretty hard to relate to amateur interpretation and boatyard practices. I'm a bit overwhelmed by too much info!

Still hope to get some useful info from successful steel boat owners!

Jim
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Old 28-06-2015, 17:40   #795
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...Still hope to get some useful info from successful steel boat owners!
I think zinc hot-metal spray is pretty much discredited nowadays, but folks still re-galvanize their anchors and chain for another 20-year, paint-free lifespan.

I once owned a 26ft steel ship's lifeboat that was built in two halves of maybe 1/16 rolled and welded plate, hot-dip galvanized then riveted along the keel - no doubt thousands were built this way. I never had to repaint that old lady in the three years I owned her and despite having served her 20-odd years aboard some liner then many more as a fishing boat, she had zero rust.

I doubt your keel will exceed 26ft. Cheaper than grit-blasting? No need to sand-blast, as they just pickle it in acid!
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