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Old 22-06-2015, 12:15   #736
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

It's not that rare nowadays to have epoxy laminated boats, thou most are cored anyway epoxy or not. Many builders give an option for epoxy for their customers. I'm building with epoxy, strip planked core on the hull and 80% PVC foam cored topsides With heavy epoxy laminated fiber skins.
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Old 22-06-2015, 12:34   #737
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

“Zanalana” is heavily built using an “engineered” combination of the world’s best boat building timbers, 815 gm double bias cloth, 9oz “S” glass (equivalent to Kevlar) and “West” Epoxy resin system. “West” being ‘wood epoxy saturation treatment’ designed by the Gougan brothers.
This construction system ensures she will not suffer from Osmosis, and due to her substantial hull, deck and cabin thickness she does not suffer the condensation issues often found in many GRP production vessels today.

The hull proper is planked with a 40 mm skin of edge fastened and glued Western Red Cedar over a laminated framework, prior to being fully sheathed in the “engineered” fibre glass skin. All framing is of NZ heart Kauri laminated and all glued and coated with West system epoxy resin as per the specifications set out in Gougan Brothers book on West System. Epoxy resin is the ultimate resin for boat building and sheathing, however it must never be thinned with thinners, as is often specified by some of the poorer brands, as, when the thinners evaporates out during the curing process it leaves the cured resin “perforated” and no longer a waterproof membrane.
“Zanalana’s” hull inside, and out, decks, cabin trunks, and cabin tops are all sheathed and treated with multiple coats of pure West epoxy in the approved manner.
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Old 22-06-2015, 13:26   #738
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Okay, yes to both.
- Solid epoxy/glass (if there are such beasts around) would be horrendously expensive but I guess it would be about as durable as it's possible to get (short of titanium or some other exotics), all other things being equal. Epoxy would normally only be used to sheath a new-build timber hull (inside and outside) or to barrier-coat the outside of a polyester/glass hull, either of which should be very low maintenance.
- Sheathing an old wooden hull to try to prolong its life is more likely to hasten its demise; no one does this any more.
- And yes Paul - proper wood-composite is akin to a cored sandwich hull (balsa or foam), as it's sheathed with resin both inside and outside. Cold-molded refers to the particular type of construction of the wood core, which nowadays would normally be sheathed both sides, making it wood-composite. Each different core material has its own advantages and disadvantages of durability.

Volumes have been written on durability of different hull materials, but I guess most every production yacht is still polyester/glass, with the better builders using vinylester/glass, or maybe even epoxy, for the outer layers.
Thanks for the wisdom. I am aware though that as TeddyDiver says there are indeed full epoxy/glass layups out there, and they are tougher than nails.

I am slightly less enamoured of the idea of wood composite however. This Spring I spent three and a half weeks drill, pick and hammer surveying a deck which had been a couple of decades at sea. The wood cored deck had fared ok, though despite being correctly sealed in all recommended ways, had suffered water ingress at high stress points with through bolts. Wherever water ingress had been wicking laterally into marine ply (it was part marine ply and part end grain balsa) was basically just mush even 70 cm from source. Balsa fared much better as the vertial grain direction served to contain the rot, but locally was also just sludge in quite a few places. I like my hulls solid, and not suspect. I would be unhappy with wood cored epoxy sandwich below the waterline for any length of time. But that's just me and my experience. As I said, I am no wood boat expert.
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Old 22-06-2015, 13:54   #739
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I am no wooden boat builder or expert. However according to what I have understood through researches related to the loss of the Nina, it is my understanding that glassing of wood may make the usual wood issues better, but particularly if it is done as part of the ORIGINAL build. Once wood has been used a lot in water, and particularly if the glass has been added in lieu of a full and superexpensive rebuild, it can actually make things significantly worse, by trapping moisture against the hull in an area thereby rendered inaccessible to inspection. Caveat emptor.
Very true. There is apparently much confusion on this subject out there. Carvel planked boats should never be glassed with anything other than the full Vaitses method, which is almost never adhered to, due to the extreme expense. Glassing a carvel planked boat is a death sentence.
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Old 22-06-2015, 14:08   #740
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Most NZ-built yachts are one-offs and the boatbuilding skills here are as good as you'll find anywhere in the world. Insufficient information on this particular vessel but it's common to build yachts here from triple-skin kauri (about the best boatbuilding timber there is) sheathed in dynel/epoxy. This is vastly superior to the sort of ply-sheathed-in-polyester used for decks on a few fibreglass production yachts (polyester/glass doesn't adhere well to timber). Some argue that proper wood-composite construction (timber/dynel/epoxy sandwich) is the most maintenance-free build you can get - but dependent on the skill of the builder (and designer) of course.


I dunno about that. The SeaRay plant in NZ sent some of their top laminators out to our yard to learn from us, as we have done a great many major repairs for them under factory warranty, and they wanted their guys to learn how we do it so they can mitigate the problem at the plant. They were the least knowledgeable laminators I have ever met. Super nice guys, but they didn't even know what a Tyvek was, no respirators, no gloves, no laminate rollers. I could go on and on. We had to teach them absolutely everything. This was their top guys, too!


Don't get me wrong, if you want a timber built boat, NZ has a long tradition of that and excellent raw materials. However, if you want the latest high tech build, I'm not sure it's the place to go. Mind you, it was ten years ago that SeaRay sent us their best; maybe they took home some skills and shared!
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Old 22-06-2015, 14:13   #741
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I dunno about that. The SeaRay plant in NZ sent some of their top laminators out to our yard to learn from us, as we have done a great many major repairs for them under factory warranty, and they wanted their guys to learn how we do it so they can mitigate the problem at the plant. They were the least knowledgeable laminators I have ever met. Super nice guys, but they didn't even know what a Tyvek was, no respirators, no gloves, no laminate rollers. I could go on and on. We had to teach them absolutely everything. This was their top guys, too!

Don't get me wrong, if you want a timber built boat, NZ has a long tradition of that and excellent raw materials. However, if you want the latest high tech build, I'm not sure it's the place to go. Mind you, it was ten years ago that SeaRay sent us their best; maybe they took home some skills and shared!
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Old 22-06-2015, 14:36   #742
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Certainly, though they had professional shipwrights and carpenters aboard, wood stores, and an ability and expectation to rebuild the boat on the hoof… how many cruisers may say the same?
Let me think ... the Pardeys???

Seriously: I think everybody who ventures out in a wooden boat should understand wood and know how to fix their boat. This involves having some supply of wood as well as involved tools.

Us here, we are sailing a GRP boat and I can fix her up with epoxy, glass and foam. I think the same rule applies to any other material: and the further one goes, the stronger this imperative.

An alternative is to fly in any required skills. If the boat is a yacht and the owner is a gentleman, this is as good as getting one's hands dirty with any required repairs.

BTW I know one gentleman who has a wooden yacht and he does know very well how to work in wood. I think this is actually part of what makes him the right shade of blue.

b.
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Old 22-06-2015, 14:41   #743
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Thanks for the wisdom. I am aware though that as TeddyDiver says there are indeed full epoxy/glass layups out there, and they are tougher than nails.

I am slightly less enamoured of the idea of wood composite however. This Spring I spent three and a half weeks drill, pick and hammer surveying a deck which had been a couple of decades at sea. The wood cored deck had fared ok, though despite being correctly sealed in all recommended ways, had suffered water ingress at high stress points with through bolts. Wherever water ingress had been wicking laterally into marine ply (it was part marine ply and part end grain balsa) was basically just mush even 70 cm from source. Balsa fared much better as the vertial grain direction served to contain the rot, but locally was also just sludge in quite a few places. I like my hulls solid, and not suspect. I would be unhappy with wood cored epoxy sandwich below the waterline for any length of time. But that's just me and my experience. As I said, I am no wood boat expert.
I'd be pretty happy with a boat from the guys at Brooklin Boat Yard, they appear to have a pretty good idea what they're doing with cold-molded builds...

I wouldn't want this 74' 'daysailer', however... Just not my style, plus it's too deep for my dock... :-)





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Old 22-06-2015, 14:52   #744
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Let me think ... the Pardeys???

Seriously: I think everybody who ventures out in a wooden boat should understand wood and know how to fix their boat. This involves having some supply of wood as well as involved tools.

Us here, we are sailing a GRP boat and I can fix her up with epoxy, glass and foam. I think the same rule applies to any other material: and the further one goes, the stronger this imperative.

An alternative is to fly in any required skills. If the boat is a yacht and the owner is a gentleman, this is as good as getting one's hands dirty with any required repairs.

BTW I know one gentleman who has a wooden yacht and he does know very well how to work in wood. I think this is actually part of what makes him the right shade of blue.

b.
Very fair comment. I have met a few wooden boats liveaboard by wooden boat builders. One lovely couple on a 36 footer as I recall I met at Five Islands anchorage, Antigua. They had just returned from the Pacific with their two young girls, including one infant. Lived aboard the previous seven years, having bought the boat, which was early 1930s origin, in its native British Colombia, and retraced her steps from the 40s and 50s back to Madagascar, where to their immense surprise and delight, they found old photos of their own craft on its decades ago previous visit. They had washed her with a pastel paint which was in some way light and see through, almost like a water based paint (I presume it was not). yellow and green, one of the most lovely vessels I have seen, and likewise the family. Only lamplight below, one battery, one GPS and a radio. Super old school and super happy. Delightful. Likewise a couple in Opua who live aboard a much larger vessel, and who used to dinghy past Nina when she was there for many months. His words about Nina? "She was a tired old boat." Hogged and in need of hauling and major work. And now vanished with all hands, never to be heard from again, likely in any way at all.

Anyhow, yes, I agree, and there are some who can and still do. For me, those are the folk who should be sailing wooden boats. I am not a good enough carpenter!

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Old 23-06-2015, 07:27   #745
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I found this link amongst everything else here. I am sure many have read it(its a good read) but basically people ended up in the water because their life raft flew away.

My Sailing: Report on textbook rescue of six crew after yacht sinks

How do you deploy a raft in a 40 knot gale without it blowing away like tumble weed?

Seems also your best advised to carry it stern on in a blue configuration. Humping a cassette from midships using two hands would not be something I would wana do.

HTF can you let you let your raft blow away? Have no idea if the raft was deployed and blew away or if the cassette was lost overboard because it was bashed by heavy seas or something else but there is a lesson there some place to be had.
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Old 23-06-2015, 08:03   #746
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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It's not that rare nowadays to have epoxy laminated boats, thou most are cored anyway epoxy or not. Many builders give an option for epoxy for their customers. I'm building with epoxy, strip planked core on the hull and 80% PVC foam cored topsides With heavy epoxy laminated fiber skins.
I'm sure many builders offer an 'epoxy alternative' (meaning the outer layer is epoxy, or a cored boat is built with epoxy) but I haven't heard of any solid hulls built entirely in epoxy. Are there some examples you can quote, and the price tag for such a hull? Sounds like overkill to me.

With your timber core, I guess there's just no other option - it's epoxy or nothing. I wonder if Muckle's example of a ply-cored deck failure was due to non-use of epoxy, as other boatbuilding resins just don't adhere permanently to timber, or was it just the usual lack of proper sealing/reinforcing/isolating the core around bolt holes. Interesting that the ply fared much worse than the balsa - but of course balsa can't be used in way of bolts.
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Old 23-06-2015, 08:15   #747
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...The SeaRay plant in NZ sent some of their top laminators out to our yard to learn from us... They were the least knowledgeable laminators I have ever met...
Aw, c'mon - SeaRay just build little fizzboats, don't they? Not REAL boats.
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Old 23-06-2015, 10:04   #748
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I'm sure many builders offer an 'epoxy alternative' (meaning the outer layer is epoxy, or a cored boat is built with epoxy) but I haven't heard of any solid hulls built entirely in epoxy. Are there some examples you can quote, and the price tag for such a hull? Sounds like overkill to me.

With your timber core, I guess there's just no other option - it's epoxy or nothing. I wonder if Muckle's example of a ply-cored deck failure was due to non-use of epoxy, as other boatbuilding resins just don't adhere permanently to timber, or was it just the usual lack of proper sealing/reinforcing/isolating the core around bolt holes. Interesting that the ply fared much worse than the balsa - but of course balsa can't be used in way of bolts.
Don't remember examples but I know there are some with non cored bottoms. What comes to the price epoxy is about three times more compared to polyester. In practice for a 40'ish boat has not more than one ton of resin used which means $8000 price tag for epoxy, peanuts IMHO for a the total price of $200-300k..

I have allways wondered the use of ply in compression. Actually end grain balsa has better strength against compression thou I'd use any reasonably rot resistant end grain hardwood instead of either plus oversized pilot holes filled with epoxy for all bolts and screws. What's also important is the sealing inside the core so possible leak won't spread like cancer. None of the big builders does any of that as far as I know.
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Old 23-06-2015, 10:06   #749
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I dunno about that. The SeaRay plant in NZ sent some of their top laminators out to our yard to learn from us, as we have done a great many major repairs for them under factory warranty, and they wanted their guys to learn how we do it so they can mitigate the problem at the plant. They were the least knowledgeable laminators I have ever met. Super nice guys, but they didn't even know what a Tyvek was, no respirators, no gloves, no laminate rollers. I could go on and on. We had to teach them absolutely everything. This was their top guys, too!


Don't get me wrong, if you want a timber built boat, NZ has a long tradition of that and excellent raw materials. However, if you want the latest high tech build, I'm not sure it's the place to go. Mind you, it was ten years ago that SeaRay sent us their best; maybe they took home some skills and shared!
Yeh, I agree. If you want hi-tec need to shop in Europe.

Although I have heard there is this place called America that's not bad at building boats either.

New Zealand is great for hi-tech but their speciality is custom one off's. Its the preferred build location for such nobles as Rob Humphrey's and Ed Dubois but New Zealand has never really done production stuff. It is simply not in their blood and as Dubois himself said “The New Zealand industry is successful for three reasons: they are inventive, capable, and boat people by nature,” just don't expect a model T-ford class of production boat to be of much interest to them.

They seem to have done ok in the America's cup and that is about as hi-tech as you can get.
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Old 23-06-2015, 10:38   #750
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

A friend of mine was on the yacht that rescued he crew.

He told me the story, and from memory the life-raft was washed away some time before the sinking. Amazingly in the prevailing conditions, they found the crew floating in the water. An EPIRB was instrumental.

I think yachtsman in general place far too much faith in their liferaft. When they are needed there are many cases where the life-raft is washed away, fails to inflate or is punctured by the yacht. Combine this with difficulty boarding the liferaft and if you need a life-raft your chances of survival are long way below 100%.
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