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Old 24-05-2015, 15:42   #646
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I think El Pinguino also has a cockpit that doesn't hold water, so it won't hold down the stern when filled and won't fill the cabin - nice way to avoid the risks of deep cockpit and no bridge deck.
Sorry to disappoint.... mine is CC... water escapes down two drains.
That said I have only had water over the gratings once... when plugging away to windward south of Mar del Plata. A sea climbed aboard over the starboard shoulder and put about 6 or 9 inches in the cockpit... most went down my neck. A little water went down below.. mainly off the back of the dodger. The took away the port solar panel and the lifering as it departed.

At sea I always have one washboard in... increasing with the weather.

edited...just looked at that photo...'almost' always have one board in...
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Old 24-05-2015, 15:54   #647
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Vancouver Pete View Post
Strangely enough I have owned and sailed 3 Vancouvers the 27, 32 and 34 all were effectively go anywhere boats. However as time moves on so do my tastes and the Hylas is very interesting. Before you criticise it too much take a look at its AVS figures and you will see that it will take a bit to invert her and she will self right i.e. she does not have a stable inverted form.
I can understand someone moving from the 'go anywhere' Vancouvers to a more sedate style of cruising - but we shouldn't try to confuse 'sedate' with 'blue'. In an earlier post I mentioned I could live with an AVS of 130 - not what I want and nowhere near the AVS of a Vancouver but I could live with it given no other economical choices.

Now: "looking at recent tests I found the following AVS figures:

Bavaria 44 121 deg.
ETAP 32 122
GS 40 125
Sun Fast 37 122
Moody 38 125
Hylas 54 122
Tartan 3700 123
Najad 400 126
Contest 44 130
Swan 45 135
Sun Od. 26 138"

When a Jenneau is shown to have a 16 degree better AVS than a Hylas... well...
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Old 25-05-2015, 02:13   #648
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Now: "looking at recent tests I found the following AVS figures:

Bavaria 44 121 deg.
ETAP 32 122
GS 40 125
Sun Fast 37 122
Moody 38 125
Hylas 54 122
Tartan 3700 123
Najad 400 126
Contest 44 130
Swan 45 135
Sun Od. 26 138"

When a Jenneau is shown to have a 16 degree better AVS than a Hylas... well...
Comparing the avs of a 54' to 26' is rather misleading, as most boat builders 26 footer will have a notably higher number than that same boatmakers 50- some footer.
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Old 25-05-2015, 02:36   #649
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I can understand someone moving from the 'go anywhere' Vancouvers to a more sedate style of cruising - but we shouldn't try to confuse 'sedate' with 'blue'. In an earlier post I mentioned I could live with an AVS of 130 - not what I want and nowhere near the AVS of a Vancouver but I could live with it given no other economical choices.

Now: "looking at recent tests I found the following AVS figures:

Bavaria 44 121 deg.
ETAP 32 122
GS 40 125
Sun Fast 37 122
Moody 38 125
Hylas 54 122
Tartan 3700 123
Najad 400 126
Contest 44 130
Swan 45 135
Sun Od. 26 138"

When a Jenneau is shown to have a 16 degree better AVS than a Hylas... well...
What makes me look at a Hylas over a Vancouver, age, the desire for a little more comfort in life (I gave up the hair shirt some time ago) and because now I can afford both the time and cost to do the voyage and visit the places that have always interested me. If you look at my original post I had started to look at Vancouver type boats hence the Valiant 50 then we saw a Hylas which was distinctly more comfortable and shall we say refined. Hence my question what would it be like to live on one for say a month or so with snow and ice on the decks, I have no doubt that the Hylas would handle the sea conditions and as has been said before one chooses the window to sail and does not unnecessarily put the boat into conditions where you would be wishing to be in harbour even with Vancouvers and valiants.

Now a matter of AVS, from memory and it took some finding at the time the AVS for the Vancouver 34 was 122 degrees I never bothered and doubt there was a calculated AVS for either the 27 or 32 but both were highly stable although initially a little tender. All three were 20 : 20 boats i.e. 20 degrees of heel in 20 knots to true wind close hauled with all plain sail up, although one tended to begin to reef a little before that. I would not call by any stretch of the imagination a Sun Odessy 26 a blue boat and whilst not saying it is wrong an AVS of 138 degrees is somewhat surprising perhaps its down to keel configuration deep fin with a lump of lead on the bottom on a light boat. One thing is for certain if ever it got there in conditions that forced it, it would come back with a few bits missing and the ride would have been uncomfortable and one that necessitated several changes of underwear.
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Old 25-05-2015, 03:21   #650
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Vancouver Pete View Post
... from memory and it took some finding at the time the AVS for the Vancouver 34 was 122 degrees I never bothered and doubt there was a calculated AVS for either the 27 or 32 but both were highly stable although initially a little tender...
Now I get your lack of concern. But, correct figures are -
Vancouver 34 AVS = 166 deg
Vancouver 28 AVS = 170 deg
Yes both are highly stable, compared with
Hylas 54 AVS = 122 deg

"There is near universal consensus that bluewater boats less than 75 ft long should have an AVS of at least 120 degrees." - Doane

Note that adding one roller furler to the standard Hylas will wipe out that remaining 2 degrees, (adding in-mast furling wipes out perhaps a further 20 deg) and just adding cruising gear gives another 10 degree reduction (Doane) - you may be lucky to have an AVS of 100-110. But each to his own - so long as we have the correct facts and figures, and not the advertising bull.

But can someone explain the concept of a "weather window" in relation to rounding the Horn? Surely the yacht has to commit to the voyage long before any information is available regarding predicted weather at the Cape? Once committed, there's no turning back - not from this side anyway.
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Old 25-05-2015, 04:32   #651
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post

But can someone explain the concept of a "weather window" in relation to rounding the Horn? Surely the yacht has to commit to the voyage long before any information is available regarding predicted weather at the Cape? Once committed, there's no turning back - not from this side anyway.
When you are doing long ocean pasages you are generally following recommended sailing directions that may call for partial rhumb line then great circle (or vice versa).

This is then modified by prevailing weather patterns and in the case of higher lattitudes.... Families of lows, who steering pattern can be seen at higher 500mb levels.

These prognosis gives the captain a good idea of when an eta at a notoriously rough spot of confluence (like the Horns) is not advised

So you slow down or take a longer working tack to avoid the worst weather and position yourself at the best weather window for the Horn.
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Old 25-05-2015, 05:22   #652
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Now I get your lack of concern. But, correct figures are -
Vancouver 34 AVS = 166 deg
Vancouver 28 AVS = 170 deg
Yes both are highly stable, compared with
Hylas 54 AVS = 122 deg

"There is near universal consensus that bluewater boats less than 75 ft long should have an AVS of at least 120 degrees." - Doane

Note that adding one roller furler to the standard Hylas will wipe out that remaining 2 degrees, (adding in-mast furling wipes out perhaps a further 20 deg) and just adding cruising gear gives another 10 degree reduction (Doane) - you may be lucky to have an AVS of 100-110. But each to his own - so long as we have the correct facts and figures, and not the advertising bull.

But can someone explain the concept of a "weather window" in relation to rounding the Horn? Surely the yacht has to commit to the voyage long before any information is available regarding predicted weather at the Cape? Once committed, there's no turning back - not from this side anyway.
I don't know where you got the figures from but I can tell you categorically the V34 C does not have an AVS of 166 or anything near it.
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Old 25-05-2015, 07:08   #653
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

If you are looking at righting ability of AVS. I would think you would concider first , the value of QZ @ 90 degrees , to get there in the first place. A boat may be harder to right itself but might also be the hardes to turn also.
A narrow beem boat migh come back on its feet after a roll faster than a wider beem but also migh be more susceptible to the inital action in the first place.
That inital action weighs in as Motion Comfort and is highly sought after so AVS migh NOT be your first concern when chosing a boat.
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Old 25-05-2015, 08:32   #654
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post

(...)

wide beam equates to inverted stability,

(...)

Wide beam presents a relatively more dangerous interior for cruising in extreme conditions.
No.

Wide beam equates more initial stability. Wide bean could proxy inverted stability in some cases when the deck is flat. When the cabin trunk is voluminous, the situation will be the opposite. Our SAR boats are wide beam - initially very stable AND SELF-RIGHTING at the same time.

You cannot say wide beam equates to inverted stability if we want to keep this thread 50% serious.

As for dangerous interior: wide beam is one thing, interior layout is another. How the designer decides to split the available space is up to them. Wide beam does not present more dangerous interior for cruising in extreme conditions (wide empty interior spaces without handholds may do) and cruising is best not done where extreme conditions are expected. I would revert to sailing in such cases.

Think about it this way: A wide boat will roll 180 then self right another 180. All this within maybe a minute or two. A narrow beam boat will come back virtually immediately. Then think about G. Then think about the people inside of the rolled boat. It may actually be against your best interest if your boat rolls over at a very fast pace ...

Etc.

Not playing down your points (which I find valid in some cases). Only showing different angles. Things hardly ever 'equate'. They at times do, but way more often there are more constituents and we must look at the whole picture rather than at the individual elements only.

Love,
b.
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Old 25-05-2015, 09:04   #655
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

FAO Nevisdog.

If I win the lotto I will buy you this. Manageable size, secure cockpit, proper doghouse to sit in while you pass the cape, nice saloon roof for your mermaids to sun bathe on. Lovely clear foredeck where you can put your inflatable. Low maintenance. Has all the numbers you like as well.



Nevisdog 53
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Old 25-05-2015, 10:01   #656
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
No.

Wide beam equates more initial stability. Wide bean could proxy inverted stability in some cases when the deck is flat. When the cabin trunk is voluminous, the situation will be the opposite. Our SAR boats are wide beam - initially very stable AND SELF-RIGHTING at the same time.

You cannot say wide beam equates to inverted stability if we want to keep this thread 50% serious.

As for dangerous interior: wide beam is one thing, interior layout is another. How the designer decides to split the available space is up to them. Wide beam does not present more dangerous interior for cruising in extreme conditions (wide empty interior spaces without handholds may do) and cruising is best not done where extreme conditions are expected. I would revert to sailing in such cases.

Think about it this way: A wide boat will roll 180 then self right another 180. All this within maybe a minute or two. A narrow beam boat will come back virtually immediately. Then think about G. Then think about the people inside of the rolled boat. It may actually be against your best interest if your boat rolls over at a very fast pace ...

Etc.

Not playing down your points (which I find valid in some cases). Only showing different angles. Things hardly ever 'equate'. They at times do, but way more often there are more constituents and we must look at the whole picture rather than at the individual elements only.

Love,
b.


This is how I think of it, but you said it very well (exemplary).
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:18   #657
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I don't know where you got the figures from but I can tell you categorically the V34 C does not have an AVS of 166 or anything near it.
Then perhaps the figures are for V34 A or B or D or E or... from RYA Stability List.

Stability is complex. To compare a large number of vessels, as when discounting certain craft as unsuitable, pretty much all we can do is compare published figures - AVS and STIX are readily available.

If you then wish to examine a particular candidate more closely, the next most important figure is downflooding angle, after that, area under GZ curve, which of course includes GZ at 90 degrees.

Some vessels are very different, such as raised wheelhouse or raised saloon, and those have to be robust and watertight to be of other than negative value. Flush deck also affects shape of GZ curve - but that's when we get into close comparison of a few suitable yachts that have passed our initial checks and by that time we are more likely examining structural integrity and maintenance history rather than scrutinizing GZ curves (yes there are far more important things than GZ at 90!).

As for narrow beam being less comfortable, wide beam being more stable inverted - yes it is a lot more complex than that simple rule of thumb and if we start looking at SAR boats, rescue boats, fishing boats, then we'd have to rewrite the entire discussion. But remember, wide beam means the yacht is more upright when rolled, the deck edge digs in earlier, beyond 90 it flips much faster, etc, etc, etc, etc, ... there are many, many other factors come into play. If you want to discuss the dynamics then you haven't even begun to scratch the surface. You would have to read up on the tank testing experiments rather than discuss here in layman's terms what is far more complex than saying a narrow beam rolls more quickly: there is a world of difference between self-righting more quickly (as against remaining inverted longer) and the actual speed of the roll: wide beam = faster motion, always. But don't take my word for it.
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:29   #658
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Then perhaps the figures are for V34 A or B or D or E or... from RYA Stability List.

Stability is complex. To compare a large number of vessels, as when discounting certain craft as unsuitable, pretty much all we can do is compare published figures - AVS and STIX are readily available.

If you then wish to examine a particular candidate more closely, the next most important figure is downflooding angle, after that, area under GZ curve, which of course includes GZ at 90 degrees.

Some vessels are very different, such as raised wheelhouse or raised saloon, and those have to be robust and watertight to be of other than negative value. Flush deck also affects shape of GZ curve - but that's when we get into close comparison of a few suitable yachts that have passed our initial checks and by that time we are more likely examining structural integrity and maintenance history rather than scrutinizing GZ curves (yes there are far more important things than GZ at 90!).

As for narrow beam being less comfortable, wide beam being more stable inverted - yes it is a lot more complex than that simple rule of thumb and if we start looking at SAR boats, rescue boats, fishing boats, then we'd have to rewrite the entire discussion. But remember, wide beam means the yacht is more upright when rolled, the deck edge digs in earlier, beyond 90 it flips much faster, etc, etc, etc, etc, ... there are many, many other factors come into play. If you want to discuss the dynamics then you haven't even begun to scratch the surface. You would have to read up on the tank testing experiments rather than discuss here in layman's terms what is far more complex than saying a narrow beam rolls more quickly: there is a world of difference between self-righting more quickly (as against remaining inverted longer) and the actual speed of the roll: wide beam = faster motion, always. But don't take my word for it.
Your last sentence is a wise statement
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:32   #659
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Then perhaps the figures are for V34 A or B or D or E or... from RYA Stability List.

Stability is complex. To compare a large number of vessels, as when discounting certain craft as unsuitable, pretty much all we can do is compare published figures - AVS and STIX are readily available.

If you then wish to examine a particular candidate more closely, the next most important figure is downflooding angle, after that, area under GZ curve, which of course includes GZ at 90 degrees.

Some vessels are very different, such as raised wheelhouse or raised saloon, and those have to be robust and watertight to be of other than negative value. Flush deck also affects shape of GZ curve - but that's when we get into close comparison of a few suitable yachts that have passed our initial checks and by that time we are more likely examining structural integrity and maintenance history rather than scrutinizing GZ curves (yes there are far more important things than GZ at 90!).

As for narrow beam being less comfortable, wide beam being more stable inverted - yes it is a lot more complex than that simple rule of thumb and if we start looking at SAR boats, rescue boats, fishing boats, then we'd have to rewrite the entire discussion. But remember, wide beam means the yacht is more upright when rolled, the deck edge digs in earlier, beyond 90 it flips much faster, etc, etc, etc, etc, ... there are many, many other factors come into play. If you want to discuss the dynamics then you haven't even begun to scratch the surface. You would have to read up on the tank testing experiments rather than discuss here in layman's terms what is far more complex than saying a narrow beam rolls more quickly: there is a world of difference between self-righting more quickly (as against remaining inverted longer) and the actual speed of the roll: wide beam = faster motion, always. But don't take my word for it.
What you quote is the AVS for a Vancouver 34 P (pilot house) STIX 35 the Vancouver 34 C ( Classic) is reported at 139 STIX 36 a little higher than I remember it's a few years since I owned and sailed a 34 C but even with such AVS figures as the Hylas what is more interesting is the area under the curve below the positive axis in rough laymans terms :big grin: the larger it is the more likely it will remain inverted.
I don't propose to discuss the merits of Vancouvers any further as you clearly are unaware of the mark judging by you reference to A B D or E versions.
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:51   #660
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...I don't propose to discuss the merits of Vancouvers any further as you clearly are unaware of the mark judging by you reference to A B D or E versions.
Now I'm really wondering why you sought advice on the Hylas, as you seem to already know far more than anyone else on this forum and have already made up your mind. Remember the advice here was "not a boat I would choose" - and that from a very experienced cruiser who is familiar with the conditions you can expect to encounter. Very strange.

Anyway it all assists me in comparing yachts that might meet my requirements, so thanks. I only hope someone else out there found something useful too.
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