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Old 24-05-2015, 07:20   #631
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post

Let's say our best mate, an experienced and capable offshore sailor, asks for advice on buying a boat to fulfill her ambition to sail round the great capes. If we recommend she buy a standard Bene, Jenneau, Hunter, Haylas 54, would we not be criminally negligent in steering her towards such a yacht?
I would have NO issue of recomending any of the boats you mentioned her but only after a few questions were answered correctly.
Are you racing around the great capes , non stop, in any weather. or are you a fair weather sailor who can wait for the proper window.
For some strange reason there is a conflict here , Not as "BLUE WATER" But what is a "CRUISING" yacht, or one for "WORLD RACING", or Maybe "EXPEDITION",
Its for the type of moving across the water that matters..
And something to think about,
Its not like getting into your car and taking a trip any time of the year. And theres more than just steering the pointing end in the direction you wish to go.

If you plan your seasons correctly , Your routes wisely, and use mass amounts of knowledge gained by those that went before you for the last hundred years, any one of the boats above would fit fine in the world of cruising.
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Old 24-05-2015, 07:31   #632
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Let's say our best mate, an experienced and capable offshore sailor, asks for advice on buying a boat to fulfill her ambition to sail round the great capes. If we recommend she buy a standard Bene, Jenneau, Hunter, Haylas 54, would we not be criminally negligent in steering her towards such a yacht?

Mixing a Hylas which is a very well built yacht with the entry level production cruisers suggests that you have a basic lack of knowledge on sailboat build quality. Your first 3 examples are all constructed pretty much the same and are of similar quality but the Hylas is in a completely different league.
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Old 24-05-2015, 07:39   #633
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Interesting versin of blue - the IMOCA 60 raceboat - not for man and wife crews! It has a step-up from cockpit to cabin and a truly watertight door, not a sliding piece of plywood. Also has a shallow cockpit which will drain from astern as quick as you fill it - nothing like the deep well seen on the Fisher.

(...)
Very well said.

Deep, voluminous cockpit wells are blue and not blue. They do offer protection yet the may/will get flooded. I am not sure where I'd rather be: washed out from a blue racing concept cockpit or deep to my ears in green water in what is often proposed as a 'safe deep cockpit' of a typical cruising boat.

This design challenge is easier when the boat gets bigger - the deck is naturally higher off the water and a deep and self draining cockpit (open aft, e.g.) becomes possible.

Another argument for blue being bigger rather than smaller.

b.
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Old 24-05-2015, 07:53   #634
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post

(...)

One thing was quickly apparent: The boats were all located in the UK (I may have picked one boat that was in the USA).

(...)
But if you are in the US then there are either exact or near equivalents for any.

Vancouvers were built in America (Canada, I think), Victorias were build in the US, etc.

For the Scandinavian or Dutch boats you will have equivalents in Valiant, PS, Morris, Hylas, Tartan, etc., as well as in Taiwanese boats that were basically only sold in the US.

BTW It would be a sad shade of of blue if blue were only the things designed back in the 70ies and 80ies. As if before and after the reality got suspended form the rule that says that progress moves things forward and that good old remains good, and old.

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Old 24-05-2015, 08:08   #635
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I love the passion and investigative industry of some of these posts, however this truth has been proven again and again when ALL vessels are tested to the extreme.

Build execution trumps poor design.....not in the cosmetics you see, but in the construction of the substrate that holds everything together AND KEEPS THE WATER OUT.
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Old 24-05-2015, 08:36   #636
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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But if you are in the US then there are either exact or near equivalents for any.

Vancouvers were built in America (Canada, I think), Victorias were build in the US, etc.

For the Scandinavian or Dutch boats you will have equivalents in Valiant, PS, Morris, Hylas, Tartan, etc., as well as in Taiwanese boats that were basically only sold in the US.

BTW It would be a sad shade of of blue if blue were only the things designed back in the 70ies and 80ies. As if before and after the reality got suspended form the rule that says that progress moves things forward and that good old remains good, and old.

Cheers,
b.


About the bold statement above: I totally agree.

One thing noticeable about this forum is the popularity of the older "plastic" (fiberglass) boats designed (in 1970s) and built in the 1980s. It was an important "era" for yachting and a long lasting profusion of boats from that era will be with us for a long time.

So will the thinking that followed their success. They are "familiar" and "proven" and "trusted" because they are around and common and used. This is natural. I happen to like many of them.

They can be "Bristol" and "beautiful" and "timeless" and "classics." Some even define a category (racer/cruiser, performance cruiser, etc.).

But, some can also be "OLD" and "falling apart" and "dated" and "in need of TLC" and "obsolete" or "beyond economical repair." Most times this is a factor of care or neglect (maintenance or not). Sometimes the "old" is a matter of materials and style (design) and building methods.
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This is not my knock or dismissal of those boats (or any from that era) or any kind of criticism of their utility, value, appeal (to individuals), or their ability to be an enjoyable cruising or nice sailboat. I am sure there must be countless satisfied owners of any of those boats.

But, I share your view that it is not a good idea to be stuck in the past. Progress is measured in change and improvements in many ways. I like to see progress, even as I enjoy the "traditional" and the "historic" or "classics."

I love classic sailboats!
Anyone who doubts my love of the real "classics" should view my photo album in my forum profile here to see visual proof (my paintings) of what I dream about, look on with loving eyes, and hope to sail someday.
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Since this thread has drifted SO MUCH (as can happen), I have an idea to start a new BW thread soon, that will be related but with a different focus. More on that later.
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Old 24-05-2015, 10:57   #637
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
One thing noticeable about this forum is the popularity of the older "plastic" (fiberglass) boats designed (in 1970s) and built in the 1980s.
I think one reasonable explanation is simply cost to buy. Older tends to mean less expensive (not cheaper). And with FRP, the hull and deck simply don't deteriorate much. The (wooden) interiors do, the rigging needs replacing periodically, the sails replacing occasionally etc. But I can get a 70-80 sailboat for $20K to $60K, whereas a 2010-2015 not so much. And there are way more folks that can afford $30K than can afford $230K

It is just my reality that when I look at boats to buy (and I am) I just do an upper cutoff at $30K. Everybody has their own upper cutoff.
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Old 24-05-2015, 11:42   #638
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

When faced with a decision about what boat to buy, if I were in the market for a boat, I would not want a boat with a liner. I understand very well the desire to appear modern and with it, but for me, and YMMV, I think it can be too hard to find quickly the causes of water ingress--whereas with a solid grp hull, you have a chance that where it is coming in is the source of the leak. In addition, I think the liner adds complexity for adding hardware and for repairing hardware leaks that develop over time. I think liners make it harder to get at anything that needs fixing. As a pretty much perpetual motion liveaboard cruiser, those issues are highly important to me.

If someone shares my prejudices, s/he will be looking at older, less "stylish" boats, because ease of maintenance is a safety as well as a convenience issue.

You might also consider El Pinguino, because he has just restored his Westerly Serenade, and he spends most of his boat time south of 50 S.

Ann
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Old 24-05-2015, 11:44   #639
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Well this thread has turned into a bit of a 'blue' (Aussie term for a fight...) So just to be 'true blue' (Aussie term ...) Anyone traveling into the wide blue yonder would do well to aquaint themselves with a bit of wide reading on the matter of sailing vessels that are safe for a long ocean passage....
Michael
And therein lies the rub - I'm in NZ, occasionally in 'Aussie'. It's easy to find information on the European and American designs of good pedigree but where can we find information on quality home-grown 'true-blue' yachts? Or are there none? All of the yachts I want to inspect are 10,000 miles from here.
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Old 24-05-2015, 12:07   #640
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Mixing a Hylas which is a very well built yacht with the entry level production cruisers suggests that you have a basic lack of knowledge on sailboat build quality.
All of the yachts chosen represent wide beam - wide beam equates to inverted stability, where people panic and yachts sink before self-righting (unless it happens to be a precision-drilled raceboat team, then they sit tight and wait for the rescue that's already on its way). Wide beam presents a relatively more dangerous interior for cruising in extreme conditions. Most modern production boats are built strong enough, many are well-proven under racing conditions, and I'm not concerned about the super-gloss finish, so Hylas falls into same category as the others.
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Old 24-05-2015, 12:29   #641
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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All of the yachts chosen represent wide beam - wide beam equates to inverted stability, where people panic and yachts sink before self-righting (unless it happens to be a precision-drilled raceboat team, then they sit tight and wait for the rescue that's already on its way). Wide beam presents a relatively more dangerous interior for cruising in extreme conditions. Most modern production boats are built strong enough, many are well-proven under racing conditions, and I'm not concerned about the super-gloss finish, so Hylas falls into same category as the others.


And this comes from your own personal experience.. if you are going to continue to put down different boats due to hear-say, document the time and place that this took place.. I would personally like to know where and when a Hylas turned turtle and people died..
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Old 24-05-2015, 12:34   #642
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Another argument for blue being bigger rather than smaller.
and...
It would be a sad shade of of blue if blue were only the things designed back in the 70ies and 80ies.
b.
Unfortunately, for many of us, blue comes with a limited budget. If I could afford a Hylas then of course I'd buy a ... Vancouver. But the other limitation on modern yachts is finding one without the wide beam that causes the unacceptably low AVS for all-weather cruising. How long does it take to round the great capes anyway, say from Auckland to Rio, Barny? A helluva lot longer than my 12 day forecast allows, that's for sure
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Old 24-05-2015, 13:09   #643
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Unfortunately, for many of us, blue comes with a limited budget. If I could afford a Hylas then of course I'd buy a ... Vancouver. But the other limitation on modern yachts is finding one without the wide beam that causes the unacceptably low AVS for all-weather cruising. How long does it take to round the great capes anyway, say from Auckland to Rio, Barny? A helluva lot longer than my 12 day forecast allows, that's for sure
Strangely enough I have owned and sailed 3 Vancouvers the 27, 32 and 34 all were effectively go anywhere boats. However as time moves on so do my tastes and the Hylas is very interesting. Before you criticise it too much take a look at its AVS figures and you will see that it will take a bit to invert her and she will self right i.e. she does not have a stable inverted form.
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Old 24-05-2015, 13:50   #644
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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All of the yachts chosen represent wide beam - wide beam equates to inverted stability, where people panic and yachts sink before self-righting (unless it happens to be a precision-drilled raceboat team, then they sit tight and wait for the rescue that's already on its way). Wide beam presents a relatively more dangerous interior for cruising in extreme conditions. Most modern production boats are built strong enough, many are well-proven under racing conditions, and I'm not concerned about the super-gloss finish, so Hylas falls into same category as the others.
A 54 foot Hylas is a very stable ocean going boat. It is a "stick built" boat rather than the cheaper full liner boats you include in your other comments so the hull is very strong. They are built using better resins and water tight bulkheads fore and aft, something you will never see in the cheap seat entry level, boats so while they have plenty of gloss and beautiful finishing they are also built to a much higher level than your other comparisons. These boats have been crossing oceans for many years and have a good reputation. Earlier models are more moderate in beam but even the later models are not the pie shaped boats you find with the entry level builders. The Hylas 54 is a great choice for cruising any of the worlds oceans but unfortunately it is not as affordable as your other choices and should not be grouped as if they may be comparable, which they are not.
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Old 24-05-2015, 14:43   #645
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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And with FRP, the hull and deck simply don't deteriorate much. .
Oh yes they can.... and that is what will push the boat into the 'uneconomic to refit' zone.

5/8ths of my boat's half life refit costs have been on hull and deck. In the near future I will be able to do a proper cost analysis... its all too painful just now...

Timber interior? Varnish will fix that... rigging and sails comes under ongoing maintenance... and so it goes
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