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Old 20-05-2015, 12:09   #601
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I agree with Stu's experience and observation about heavy cambered decks.
They are a designer's marketing rationalisation in their attempt to maximize interior height and volume, while keeping the profile looking low and flowing.....

The first priority for a blue boat should be to keep the crew safely onboard in any conditions.
A 12" bulwark supporting strong stantions and lifelines with heavy duty nonskid is what I prefer.
I will see your 12 inches and raise your 2 foot...



If Nevisdog sees this pic this is my top trump card - It has an AVS of 180 and if it can't get back from 180, the bulwark is so deep you just need to attach a blower and you have yourself a hover craft.. Beat that!
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:04   #602
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Without having a form of steering in the outside cockpit, it sure would be annoying putting the sails up on that boat, especially if your autopilot went down.
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Old 20-05-2015, 19:38   #603
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I will see your 12 inches and raise your 2 foot...


I think this is where barnakle's concern about retaining too much green water in heavy weather becomes more of a problem..... It would delay recovery and the 2 midship scuppers would get overwhelmed.

I have a total of 8 x 16" scuppers and 2 large draining tunnels in the front of what is basically a walk in.. open cockpit.

Have seen the decks free of solid water in about 2-3 seconds, so happy with my 12
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Old 20-05-2015, 20:45   #604
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I believe that the combination of high bulwarks AND lots of sheer (rocker) is good for shedding water as the majority will quickly flow down the side decks and over the top of the bulwarks. The small amount of remaining water can then drain through small scupers.

Steve
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Old 20-05-2015, 21:07   #605
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Absolutely Steve.....
my own experiences running a highly sheered converted Norwegian Whale catcher (Thorfinn) as a fish packer then an exploration yacht thru many winter storms from the Bering Sea to Mexico and Micronesia, convinced me of that.

Now retired in Chuk Lagoon where she resides as a liveaboard dive boat it was a great experience to steam thru major storms in those early pelagic days.


http://thorfinn.net/
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Old 21-05-2015, 06:44   #606
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I think this is where barnakle's concern about retaining too much green water in heavy weather becomes more of a problem..... It would delay recovery and the 2 midship scuppers would get overwhelmed.

I have a total of 8 x 16" scuppers and 2 large draining tunnels in the front of what is basically a walk in.. open cockpit.

Have seen the decks free of solid water in about 2-3 seconds, so happy with my 12
I do like your deck.. Good layout. Utilitarian and convivial. Looks like a great space.
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Old 22-05-2015, 06:56   #607
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I am currently thinking of buying a boat after several years away from sailing and cruising. My "experience" is generally with displacement long keel cutter rigged boats and whilst not spent years on board cruising it was months, I have done a few Atlantic crossings and spent time above the Arctic circle. In the past I was always a self sufficiency orientated sailor on a KISS principal with wind turbine and solar etc blown heating and a diesel cabin heater.
Now times and finances are somewhat changed and I am looking at boats to effectively do a circumnavigation taking in the great capes and a significant amount of high latitude sailing both south and north as well as Polynesia and a little time in the Caribbean. I was first drawn by past experience to the type of boat that I had sailed in the past and Crealock and Valiants seemed to fit the bill in particular a Valiant 50. Then the wife and I have to admit myself got sidetracked and looked at a Hylas 54 and to be honest the creature comforts are making it a front runner. However is it a high latitude boat I have no doubt that it is eminently seaworthy but could you live on it for weeks or a couple of months with snow and ice on the decks? It does seem to be designed for cruising more in the tropics. Also it seems very reliant on a generator and does not look to be suitable for wind vane steering so it will be daily charging regime and auto pilot.
So any comments as to the suitability of the Hylas or that type for the sailing I intend to do.
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Old 22-05-2015, 14:46   #608
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I am currently thinking of buying a boat after several years away from sailing and cruising. My "experience" is generally with displacement long keel cutter rigged boats and whilst not spent years on board cruising it was months, I have done a few Atlantic crossings and spent time above the Arctic circle. In the past I was always a self sufficiency orientated sailor on a KISS principal with wind turbine and solar etc blown heating and a diesel cabin heater.
Now times and finances are somewhat changed and I am looking at boats to effectively do a circumnavigation taking in the great capes and a significant amount of high latitude sailing both south and north as well as Polynesia and a little time in the Caribbean. I was first drawn by past experience to the type of boat that I had sailed in the past and Crealock and Valiants seemed to fit the bill in particular a Valiant 50. Then the wife and I have to admit myself got sidetracked and looked at a Hylas 54 and to be honest the creature comforts are making it a front runner. However is it a high latitude boat I have no doubt that it is eminently seaworthy but could you live on it for weeks or a couple of months with snow and ice on the decks? It does seem to be designed for cruising more in the tropics. Also it seems very reliant on a generator and does not look to be suitable for wind vane steering so it will be daily charging regime and auto pilot.
So any comments as to the suitability of the Hylas or that type for the sailing I intend to do.
Are you talking about something like this? 2007 Hylas - 54 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It wouldn't be my choice.... looks at best like a trade wind queen... and even there I wouldn't want in mast furling but that is maybe just on the one for sale in the above pic.

Thats a big lump of boat to be getting in and out of caletas on a daily basis and yes , you would be spending time tied up with snow on deck as - two up - she would be hard work getting under way in anything looking like adverse weather.

I don't think she is the type of boat you would be wanting to take down to the peninsula either.

My tuppence worth.
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Old 22-05-2015, 18:37   #609
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Are you talking about something like this? 2007 Hylas - 54 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com It wouldn't be my choice....
Wow! Love the engine room.
Queen-size island bed for blue water?
Long bench galley?
Wide beam maybe (maybe) not such an issue for stability in this size vessel, but what about falling/being thrown across that saloon?

(Just ignore my half-pence worth - no experience above/below 50 degrees and impossible to compare a Hanse ballroom with a cavelike Colin Archer - but I couldn't stop myself from groaning out loud.)
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Old 22-05-2015, 20:24   #610
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I have seen one Hylas on the water and plenty in magazines. In each case, they looked very nice.

It feels good to have a boat that looks fine. Especially one that has all the other blue features.

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Old 22-05-2015, 20:27   #611
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

That Fisher thing is not the ugliest boat I have ever seen. It is not.

And the pleasure of staying warm and dry when the hits the fan. Priceless & blue.

Cheers,
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Old 22-05-2015, 22:04   #612
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

This began as a discussion of what helps make a boat suitable for blue-water cruising. Venturing below the great capes fits that category, "Then (we) got sidetracked and looked at a Hylas 54": so can anyone point to one single feature of a Hylas 54 that makes it suited to such a voyage? The engineroom? In-mast furling??? I think not. We've been warned (sensibly) about small boats and suicidal voyages - so why encourage such stupidity with larger craft?

Even the Fisher 34 has a full-height wooden entry at back of wheelhouse that would be breached by the first wave, then the wheelhouse that provides all of the high-angle stability would instead prevent her from self-righting in a knockdown.

We need to look beyond "feel-good" and "looks fine" and "warm and dry" (but totally insecure) for this thread to be worth following. Somehow you knowledgable cruisers have lost the plot - you should stop drooling over sexy interiors and superficial appearances and stick to discussion of blue/non-blue. There must be plenty other threads to discuss what looks nice lying snug in a marina.
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Old 23-05-2015, 03:27   #613
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Interesting replies, for what it's worth the Hylas I have looked at had in boom furling with a carbon rig which for me would be a first but not a problem, in mast definitely would be. As for the saloon there are plenty of hand holds for getting about so it again is not a real problem. There are also two very well positioned single berths and all berths have lee cloths so again not a problem. Long bench galley again not a problem enough room to work and plenty of places to brace against opposite the work area and the addition of one or two straps at cooker and sinks would help. I don't think stability is a problem the published AVS is comparable and better than many traditional Blue boats and it's hull form indicates that it would not be a slammer. One big plus over the Valiant which without doubt fits firmly into everyones definition of a survival Blue Water boat is the ability to consistently turn in 200 mile plus days and stand up to it's rig. If it were not the fact that I intend to visit the Southern Ocean and South Indian Ocean I would have no hesitation in buying the Hylas, I just have the niggling thought that whilst it is perfectly capable of doing so it is more aimed at tropical cruising.
As for what makes a Blue boat only the individual can say, it's what he is prepared to sail in. I know someone that has circumnavigated via the great capes and seen storm conditions in a Contessa 26, is that a Blue boat? for him yes for me NO. Is an open 60 or 40 for that matter a Blue boat, they have survived in conditions most of us will never see or want to? Again for me no. Is a Blue boat one that can venture from the Arctic to Antarctic ice shelfs and all in between or one that can simply cross oceans at the "right time of year" and via the "right route" or is it a boat that can effectively within reason, hurricane etc. excepted feel free to go where and when it and its master wishes. T he idea that one can define a Blue boat is false, it's to broad a definition. Each and every voyage and boat has to be evaluated separately, there is no perfect all encompassing Blue boat.
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Old 23-05-2015, 07:24   #614
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Some way up the thread someone said in-mast furling NOT blue???

Take this:

http://www.joshua40.com/wpimages/wpff8d44c7_05_06.jpg

And where someone claims that the first breaking wave will breach the door on a Fisher:

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/resi...=1345581034000

I doubt it.

There may be some non blue features in those boats but not where you are pointing your fingers. Sorry.

Regards,
b.
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Old 23-05-2015, 07:34   #615
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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As for what makes a Blue boat only the individual can say, it's what he is prepared to sail in. I know someone that has circumnavigated via the great capes and seen storm conditions in a Contessa 26, is that a Blue boat? for him yes for me NO.
While I understand and truly do appreciate that idea it is helpful to me to look it a little differently.

A little scene setting.

Supposed I am an experienced backwoodsman. I love to jump in my truck and go camping. I have done it for 50 bajillion years and I know exactly what I can do with what I have and I can get places you would not imagine. Yet there are places my truck won't safely get me.

My friend buys a military surplus tricked out hummer. It has intake and exhaust piped up into the air and can go through water above the doors. It has 36 inches of clearance, and yet it is real balanced clearance, not some "jacked up about to capsize" clearance. It has gearing and tires that will get him safely up (and down) the sides of shear cliffs covered in trees.

His hummer will simply flat out go places that my very rugged 4X that I have driven for 20 years, know and love, simply won't go, never mind go safely.

My friend goes with me on a journey, and even though he doesn't have 20 years of outback experience, he laughs hysterically when I am forced to stop. He just leads the way, breaking down a path for me and tows me up the mountain.

That my friends is what I really wanted to discover in this thread.

It is not that one can't grab a 12 foot dingy, throw a sail on it and head off to Hawaii. He MAY get there, or may not. It is simply that the dingy surely is NOT as safe for such an undertaking as boat xyz, which we consider "blue" for the following list of reasons...

So to throw out "sailor J sailed to location asdfg in boat qwerty and that proves zxcvbnm" is not useful to me. All that it proves is that "sailor J sailed to location asdfg in boat qwerty". It in no way proves zxcvbnm, in fact it doesn't prove anything, other than perhaps the man (or woman) went off his meds and was feeling suicidal.

It absolutely is quite feasible to discuss the relative merits of MY 4X relative to the tricked out Hummer. We can compare the horsepower, the gearing, the ground clearance, the intake / exhaust venting, the ...

And we can discuss that, sitting in the parking lot, simply anticipating some theoretical trip across the wilderness.

So no, the fact that sailor J managed to survive some trip in boat qwerty most assuredly does NOT make it a blue water boat. It just means he didn't sink on THAT trip, though it is entirely likely that he will sink on the next trip. And it proves that he is an Adrenalin junkie.

IMHO neither of those things is really relevant to this discussion.
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