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Old 18-05-2015, 01:12   #586
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
It's worrying to see such encouragement to look upon liferafts as our saviour in the context of 'blue'.
1. Liferafts only work if you can guarantee help is on its way - not always a good option in the deep blue, unless you are smack in a shipping lane.
2. I forget the figures from the Fastnet disaster (in which search helicopters were in the air within minutes) but so many lost their lives in attempting to transfer to a liferaft, or when their liferaft disintegrated, rolled, flooded, that the strong recommendation from that incident was not to abandon the mother ship "unless in imminent danger of sinking."
3. I believe many, many yachts were recovered with hulls intact (minus masts, rudders, etc), while their crews that had abandoned them for a liferaft were never recovered.

Maybe someone has the exact numbers from that incident?

Upside down yacht I'd want out - upside down cat: no way.
Obviously not all yachts carry life rafts, and not all sailors feel a need for them. Some respected blue water sailors on this forum do not have them.

But, that is their choice. I may respect their sailing skills or experience, but I may also differ from them in many aspects and views. We are human.

On my boat? I would have one for a blue water boat.

I only advocate stepping into a liferaft when the alternative is more life threatening or there are no better alternatives (you are floating in a PFD).

When your boat is going under? Liferaft!

When your boat is on fire and you cannot safely extinguish the fire? Liferaft!

When your boat got cut in half by a ship that ran over you? Liferaft!

When your boat is being ground up on a reef or smashed to bits? Liferaft!

Those are some examples that come to mind at the moment.
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Anyone is able to choose differently. It is your life choice (or your family's or crew's).
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Old 18-05-2015, 07:20   #587
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...When your boat is going under? Liferaft!
When your boat is on fire ... ...
When up to your knees in sloshing water and debris - do NOT abandon.
When you find yourself standing on the cabin roof, inside - do NOT abandon.
When rolling extremely violently due to dismasting - do NOT abandon.
When liferaft self-inflates - do NOT abandon ship.
When rudderless and being hammered - do NOT abandon....
These are the type of examples that were being discussed. So long as folks realize that abandoning ship in a storm is the most dangerous action they can take, short of sinking, then we've covered our bases.
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Old 18-05-2015, 08:25   #588
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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When up to your knees in sloshing water and debris - do NOT abandon.
When you find yourself standing on the cabin roof, inside - do NOT abandon.
When rolling extremely violently due to dismasting - do NOT abandon.
When liferaft self-inflates - do NOT abandon ship.
When rudderless and being hammered - do NOT abandon....
These are the type of examples that were being discussed. So long as folks realize that abandoning ship in a storm is the most dangerous action they can take, short of sinking, then we've covered our bases.
and when wife wont stop moaning?
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Old 18-05-2015, 08:34   #589
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
When up to your knees in sloshing water and debris - do NOT abandon.
When you find yourself standing on the cabin roof, inside - do NOT abandon.
When rolling extremely violently due to dismasting - do NOT abandon.
When liferaft self-inflates - do NOT abandon ship.
When rudderless and being hammered - do NOT abandon....
These are the type of examples that were being discussed. So long as folks realize that abandoning ship in a storm is the most dangerous action they can take, short of sinking, then we've covered our bases.
Just like the wife moaning..... Abandoning ship can be for good reasons.
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Old 18-05-2015, 12:09   #590
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by FastCruiser View Post
Our boat is designed as such with the sides of the cabin and the side decks slanted outward until healed 12 to 14 degrees and then all walking surfaces on the windward side are flat..
I've been on boats like that. IIRC, perhaps it was a Caliber 40 (nice boats).

I personally dislike the concept:

1. The lee side is then even MORE vertical, and I use the lee side just as often as the high side. And sometimes you just HAVE TO.

2. It sucks when you're in port or sailing downwind - BOTH decks are "slopey" which makes it harder to use almost all of the time.

All of us will find the sweet spots on our boats, ergonomically, but it just seems to me that designing something in that only works some of the time, makes one side even LESS desirable, and is discomforting (at least to me) when the boat IS stable, makes little sense.
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Old 18-05-2015, 12:25   #591
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
1. The lee side is then even MORE vertical, and I use the lee side just as often as the high side. And sometimes you just HAVE TO.

2. It sucks when you're in port or sailing downwind - BOTH decks are "slopey" which makes it harder to use almost all of the time.

All of us will find the sweet spots on our boats, ergonomically, but it just seems to me that designing something in that only works some of the time, makes one side even LESS desirable, and is discomforting (at least to me) when the boat IS stable, makes little sense.
I designed side decks with negative camber, at the gunwhale 3 deg to 18 deg at the cabin sides which are 60 deg. Toerail helps too if got to go on the lee side just dunno yet how high it will be.
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Old 18-05-2015, 16:43   #592
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I agree with Stu's experience and observation about heavy cambered decks.
They are a designer's marketing rationalisation in their attempt to maximize interior height and volume, while keeping the profile looking low and flowing.....

The first priority for a blue boat should be to keep the crew safely onboard in any conditions.
A 12" bulwark supporting strong stantions and lifelines with heavy duty nonskid is what I prefer.
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Old 18-05-2015, 16:58   #593
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I agree with Stu's experience and observation about heavy cambered decks.
They are a designer's marketing rationalisation in their attempt to maximize interior height and volume, while keeping the profile looking low and flowing.....

The first priority for a blue boat should be to keep the crew safely onboard in any conditions.
A 12" bulwark supporting strong stantions and lifelines with heavy duty nonskid is what I prefer.


It is a nice feeling when you can really plant your foot in the bulwark on the leeward side when the boat is heeled.
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Old 18-05-2015, 17:20   #594
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I designed side decks with negative camber, at the gunwhale 3 deg to 18 deg at the cabin sides which are 60 deg. ...
Interesting 'outside-the-box' concept - how is it done?
Where does water on deck run to? Does it need a drain, like cockpit drains???
And is it a one-off design - what size boat we talking (thinking headroom below)?
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Old 18-05-2015, 19:39   #595
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I hardly ever walk the lee deck out at sea. So I prefer the angle to be sloping outwards as this makes the high side flatter on a heeled boat.

And I dislike bulwarks and anything that keeps green water on the deck.

And I dislike too much sheer when topsides are not tall enough. No ocean bottom views thru lee windows PLS.

I love whalebacks, seldom as they get used. Boats with whaleback decks and low topsides tend to ride comparatively dry no matter what.

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Old 18-05-2015, 20:18   #596
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post


It is a nice feeling when you can really plant your foot in the bulwark on the leeward side when the boat is heeled.
I agree. Just don't forget the rubber boots!

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I hardly ever walk the lee deck out at sea. So I prefer the angle to be sloping outwards as this makes the high side flatter on a heeled boat..........

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But where else will I stand when tying reef nettles?

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Old 18-05-2015, 22:48   #597
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Interesting 'outside-the-box' concept - how is it done?
Where does water on deck run to? Does it need a drain, like cockpit drains???
And is it a one-off design - what size boat we talking (thinking headroom below)?
It's being build as speak, or well, only on weekends if it's warm enough. Got to put some pictures here. The sheer slopes towards stern and I'll leave opening in the toe rail by midship cleats. This leaves me an option for easy rainwater collection, just drains to tanks at the stern end of the side deck and couple of towels to keep the water from escaping by the cleats. That way the entire deck collects (except cockpit) the rain water.
Yes, it's one-off. 33'ish waterline, 6 metric tons of displacement. Under the side decks there's sitting height and else where in the cabin standing height.
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Old 19-05-2015, 02:15   #598
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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It's being build as speak, or well, only on weekends if it's warm enough. Got to put some pictures here. The sheer slopes towards stern and I'll leave opening in the toe rail by midship cleats....
I'm thinking "reverse camber" means that the camber is concave rather than convex - not that the side decks slope inboard 3 degrees instead of sloping outboard: my confusion, sorry. Sounds good though.
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Old 19-05-2015, 08:53   #599
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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But where else will I stand when tying reef nettles?
Yes. Good point.

In our boat, I do not.

Unless the boat is at risk of getting smashed by a huge wave. Without nettles, the wave may fill the bunt and rip the sail open.

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Old 20-05-2015, 04:23   #600
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...There are two web sites: morganscloud.com &
Setsail.com
that provide a most balanced answer to your question. In the case of the former site they specify an "Adventure 40"....
That morganscloud site may deserve a little more air-time here - I just took a look at the Adventure 40 interior layout drawings and the designer's comments and they are certainly informative. As a new build it's outside my scope but the design philosophy is interesting - 'true-blue'. (But don't give up reading at the first picture - the second layout proposed is a massive improvement.)
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