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Old 27-04-2015, 08:28   #46
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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You're looking at individual pieces. Do you believe a Bentley or a Ferrari is the same as a Toyota Scion? And it's only the driver that makes the difference since all three cars will get you from point "A" to point "B". In most cases... It's the Scion driver who believes this crap logic.
This is where the analogies break down. There is no doubt that the the Bently is a very expensive, semi hand crafted car, and the ferrai contains expensive race orientated engineering, but neither of these are fundamental to the basic engineering issues around a car.

The Toyota will have a 5 star Euro NCAP rating with 96% passenger safety rating while certain luxury cars in fact have less.

The toyota will do 200,000 miles without needing rebuild or significant engine parts, the same will not be said for any high performance cars , especially ferrai


Money , Ken, is not the same as value, buying a finely hand fitted teak interior in a halberg rassy , will not make it survive any storm better then the laser cut plywood interior in a Beneteau,

Howver the glossy brochures for the HR will be a much nicer feel and the carpets in the dealer will be thicker.
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Old 27-04-2015, 08:51   #47
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

Both boats are nearly the same length, both have Dodgers (which seemed to elude you on the second video. The first boat is light displacement and totally out of control and being knocked around in relatively light conditions, the wind is only around 30 knots (look at the waves... Very small). The second video shows a boat in winds and waves exerting way over twice the forces on the boat with over 55 knots of continuous wind. But rather than being out of control, the heavy displacement boat remains completely balanced and in control.
The second boat is supposedly an Oyster 46. This has a D/L ratio of around 230. That is not a heavy displacement boat. The Newport 41 in the first picture has a D/L ratio of 300.

So the lighter, more modern boat fares better in heavy weather seems to be the point you are trying to make.

Or alternatively, the circumstances in both videos are not comparable...
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Old 27-04-2015, 09:02   #48
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Paulanthony and others,

If you can't see the difference between the two boats in the videos... Then nobody's going to be able to show or teach you the difference. You're on your own to figure it out, or more likely your biased mind is already made up and this thread is a complete waste of time.

Both boats are nearly the same length, both have Dodgers (which seemed to elude you on the second video. The first boat is light displacement and totally out of control and being knocked around in relatively light conditions, the wind is only around 30 knots (look at the waves... Very small). The second video shows a boat in winds and waves exerting way over twice the forces on the boat with over 55 knots of continuous wind. But rather than being out of control, the heavy displacement boat remains completely balanced and in control. Just look at the difference in the conditions and the overbuilt quality and strength of the components on the deck, rigging, mast and shrouds. It's the sum of all the components which makes the difference. You're looking at individual pieces. Do you believe a Bentley or a Ferrari is the same as a Toyota Scion? And it's only the driver that makes the difference since all three cars will get you from point "A" to point "B". In most cases... It's the Scion driver who believes this crap logic.

If you can't see the difference.... You must be blind or you're not truly looking for answers. Do some reading and educate yourself.

Kenomac. You should study the vids yourself. They are on completely diff points of sail. The top one is close hauled or close reached, running more sail than they need to and having a bit of fun at the limits. The bottom example would also be showing similar symptoms if it was on the same point with the same amount of sail. They are two boats under different pressure loads doing two different things. Maybe in the bottom example they cant even run close hauled in 50 knots which is why they running with the storm. Who knows. I think some one above already mentioned apples and pears. If the top example turned away it would also calm down.

But anyway? To you a blue water boat is clearly a boat that is heavy. Incidentally if you think the thread is a complete waste of time then why would you waste your time?
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Old 27-04-2015, 09:47   #49
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I just believe that as consumers it is up to us to be a little bit more forceful and throw the concept of a blue water yacht back in the lap of the designer and or salesman and say ok, It's a blue water cruiser. I hear you.. Cool! Now please show me the blue water standard for me to measure your boats capability against. As it stands at the moment we are just making the design and marketing job easy for those that wish to sell to us coz all we are doing is nodding our heads in semi acquiesce because we have no real reference point as guidance.

"Its a blue water yacht sir." - "Great! So what can I expect from a blue water yacht over a normal yacht?" - "Mmm, Bigger price sir and of course those all important bragging rights!" "Perfect. Where do I sign?"
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Old 27-04-2015, 09:55   #50
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
"Its a blue water yacht sir." - "Great! So what can I expect from a blue water yacht over a normal yacht?" - "Mmm, Bigger price sir and of course those all important bragging rights!" "Perfect. Where do I sign?"
Go to a boat show, examine the boats yourself, open up your mind.... you will see the difference. Just look at the hardware.... light duty vs heavy duty. Obvious to most, not so obvious to others.
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Old 27-04-2015, 10:08   #51
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Kenomac, I truly feel you constantly try and present the arguments in a simple one sided situation

lets take for example the debate on Spade versus fully attached barn door rudders.

No one disputes that the Barn door rudder is more rugged in extremes, If I ground in a spade compared to a barn door, I am certainly likely to do more damage, whether that damage is disabling , will possibly be down to luck

However such activity is perhaps 0.01% of the activity of the boat. Should a boat be optimised for 0.01% , I would suggest not.

In normal sailing, including gales etc, i.e., the 99.99% of the activity, the spade ruder is going to be superior, far better dynamically , easier on the helm, faster to correct , etc etc, when Im siding down the back of a wave in a survival storm, training warps, I certainly want a spade rudder every time.

Boats are compromises, this is one of them and its a compromise modern NA's from beneteau to HR are increasingly making

The same argument could be had allover a boat, jul deck joins, keels, masts etc
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Old 27-04-2015, 10:14   #52
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Sail Calculator Pro gives stats on many boats. You can set up your own criteria but the "Capsize" ratio of 2.0 or lower indicates the boat is acceptable for ocean racing on that criteria. Doesn't say the thing won't get dis- masted in a full gale though.
I haven't heard the term "true blue" before, but "salty" comes to mind
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Old 27-04-2015, 10:19   #53
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Since this thread is un-ravelled,I contribute this thought about "blue" water.
It can show up unexpectedly close to land,as happened in Mobile on weekend.
An old fella told me once "She's a good boat that'll stand more than the crew"

Long may yer big jib draw. / Len
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Old 27-04-2015, 10:21   #54
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is where the analogies break down. There is no doubt that the the Bently is a very expensive, semi hand crafted car, and the ferrai contains expensive race orientated engineering, but neither of these are fundamental to the basic engineering issues around a car.

The Toyota will have a 5 star Euro NCAP rating with 96% passenger safety rating while certain luxury cars in fact have less.

The toyota will do 200,000 miles without needing rebuild or significant engine parts, the same will not be said for any high performance cars , especially ferrai


Money , Ken, is not the same as value, buying a finely hand fitted teak interior in a halberg rassy , will not make it survive any storm better then the laser cut plywood interior in a Beneteau,

Howver the glossy brochures for the HR will be a much nicer feel and the carpets in the dealer will be thicker.
Dave,

I remember thinking one time as I was driving down the freeway at 145mph in my Ferrari... that my Scion XB probably can't do this. And... that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to try.

But you're right... my Scion is a very good value, we love the car.

Ken
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Old 27-04-2015, 10:26   #55
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
It is kind of my point really Stu. It's a book of opinion and not a specification......
If this blue water notion is true then boat designers should get together and define the standard that separates them from other designs.
Here you go: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/OSR2015Mo0-[18230].pdf
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:07   #56
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Thanks RainDog...
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:58   #57
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Hello.

I am posting comments below because while I enjoy discussions about the nature of seaworthy and "blue water" boats, I don't like to see discussions like this turn hostile.

My friendly suggestion is that we could be focused on what we observe in the videos and what might be done differently or better or what would make us better sailors, regardless of the boat brand or type used. But that is how I see it. You are likely to see things differently. And that is my point of this post.

So, I am offering the following in a friendly tone of voice, and with the sole intent to help others see something that may be missed. Of course we are all able to draw our own conclusions, hopefully they will be based on facts.
______________________

The following video has been posted on forums frequently (I know i have seen it via several threads over the last year).

It is variously used to illustrate a point regarding something like:

1. Wind Speed
The video is usually posted to show conditions at sea in high winds. But some folks doubt the speed due to their judgement based on the wave conditions, while others trust the wind speed indicator (knot meter shown in the video shows over 50 knots).

2. Better sailing skill

________________________

In this current thread, the video is compared to another video showing an overpowered boat that is heeled, on a different point of sail, in different wind (estimated 30-35 with gusts up to 45 knots by the original videographer) and struggling with the sails and the process of furling a headsail (the main was already double reefed).

___________________

What is seen and what is not seen in a video.

Regarding the second video (shown below), it is perhaps overlooked that the boat in the video is sailing with NO mainsail used at all (it is fully furled in the "in mast furling" or IN the mast). This is clearly seen in the video at 0:28. https://youtu.be/lYSdOfcPiFE?t=28s

Another point on the second video is that the boat was "motorsailing."

And, despite the moderate motion displayed by the boat in the video, the crew and boat experienced some damage.

Here are some direct quotes (seen in the video's comments on Youtube) from the crew member who originally posted the video on Youtube. These are his words:
________________________

Original Poster of the Video on Youtube ("Desh"):
"...yes we were running the engine with a handkerchief of a foresail (probably smaller than a storm jib as it was a standard jib and so nowhere near as strong). A heavily reefed headsail helped to keep the boat running before the wind but the troughs of the swell were deep enough to shade the sail from the wind and lose forward drive so running (motor sailing) with drive from the engine maintained forward momentum in the troughs and helped to avoid broaching.

...we had these conditions for 18 hours by the end of which one crew member had been thrown across the saloon injuring his back, a cabin door had been snapped off and thrown around causing other damage, gear was all over the place below, and we were all completely knackered."
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Old 27-04-2015, 12:13   #58
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Wink Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Easier to flunk boats... The weakest link in any vehicle is usually the nut that holds the steering wheel (tiller, yoke, etc.).
Yep; seems to me this is a very under-played necessity… Despite my fantasies, dreams and elbow-grease (not to mention lots of epoxy, stainless steel, storm canvas and of course the requisite Lexan steering dome someday) there is every likelihood that none of my vessels will never be truly “blue-water” without a change of skipper…
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Old 27-04-2015, 13:49   #59
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Hello.

I am posting comments below because while I enjoy discussions about the nature of seaworthy and "blue water" boats, I don't like to see discussions like this turn hostile.

My friendly suggestion is that we could be focused on what we observe in the videos and what might be done differently or better or what would make us better sailors, regardless of the boat brand or type used. But that is how I see it. You are likely to see things differently. And that is my point of this post.

So, I am offering the following in a friendly tone of voice, and with the sole intent to help others see something that may be missed. Of course we are all able to draw our own conclusions, hopefully they will be based on facts.
______________________

The following video has been posted on forums frequently (I know i have seen it via several threads over the last year).

It is variously used to illustrate a point regarding something like:

1. Wind Speed
The video is usually posted to show conditions at sea in high winds. But some folks doubt the speed due to their judgement based on the wave conditions, while others trust the wind speed indicator (knot meter shown in the video shows over 50 knots).

2. Better sailing skill

________________________

In this current thread, the video is compared to another video showing an overpowered boat that is heeled, on a different point of sail, in different wind (estimated 30-35 with gusts up to 45 knots by the original videographer) and struggling with the sails and the process of furling a headsail (the main was already double reefed).

___________________

What is seen and what is not seen in a video.

Regarding the second video (shown below), it is perhaps overlooked that the boat in the video is sailing with NO mainsail used at all (it is fully furled in the "in mast furling" or IN the mast). This is clearly seen in the video at 0:28. https://youtu.be/lYSdOfcPiFE?t=28s

Another point on the second video is that the boat was "motorsailing."

And, despite the moderate motion displayed by the boat in the video, the crew and boat experienced some damage.

Here are some direct quotes (seen in the video's comments on Youtube) from the crew member who originally posted the video on Youtube. These are his words:
________________________

Original Poster of the Video on Youtube ("Desh"):
"...yes we were running the engine with a handkerchief of a foresail (probably smaller than a storm jib as it was a standard jib and so nowhere near as strong). A heavily reefed headsail helped to keep the boat running before the wind but the troughs of the swell were deep enough to shade the sail from the wind and lose forward drive so running (motor sailing) with drive from the engine maintained forward momentum in the troughs and helped to avoid broaching.

...we had these conditions for 18 hours by the end of which one crew member had been thrown across the saloon injuring his back, a cabin door had been snapped off and thrown around causing other damage, gear was all over the place below, and we were all completely knackered."
___________________________

That is very interesting SH. You know, I would love to see a video of the inside of a saloon at 50 knots taken whilst mounted on a gimble. That clip must be near the end of the storm then because you cant see it sinking into a troff. Seems there is no drogue in use because the vessel seems too twitchy.
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Old 27-04-2015, 13:53   #60
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Unless you are color blind, a blue boat should be easy to spot…

Mark
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
I can't help it, I know it is frivolous of me to take up good space, but CF is my daily read and I get so many great laughs along with great info. And that one just hit the spot! thanks.
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