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Old 11-05-2015, 09:59   #496
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I quite like it though...

Is this the boat they call the "I sore"
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:31   #497
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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We'll these boats have a maximum design length to consider.
The 37' RM 1070 has a small sprit too. But it still has a longer waterline than a Gozzard 41 which has a LOA of 47!

Upwind you want the maximum waterline length. If you need X feet to be able to fly the sails you need when going upwind then why not make sure the waterline length is X as well? Why waste construction length by adding a big clipper bow and bow sprit.
Again, with the Gozzard 47 you'll be paying harbour fees for a 47 footer, whereas you'll have the performance of a 35 footer. I rather have it the other way round...


But the causation in this case is real. The bowsprit is needed to get enough up wind sail area. Why is so much upwind sail area needed on a relatively small boat?
Answer: Because it's heavy...
Because with a bowsprit you get something for nothing nearly. If your standard rig can go beyond the deck you get a freeby because it is sail that can assist overcoming the inertia and drag of your boat but with no associated hull below of its own to have to consider. The main is not less because you have a bowsprit.

You could make the boat have a lighter displacement but then it would not be a Gozzard and we would all have to buy RM lookalikes.

I suppose you could make some nice plywood cupboards from your RM when it starts to fall apart.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:00   #498
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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=A lot of what Gozzard says on their website is just plain common sense. A blue water boat must be strong (but I'll bet that RM Yachts builds stronger boats for example).
But some of it is just wrong, and shows their prejudices. A long keel doesn't make a yacht track better. course stability has to do with balance. ...either be longer, or lighter.
Balancing opposing forces (whether a sensitive measurement weighting scale or a boat with a balanced helm) is not the same as dynamic external force (cyclic momentary type) stability. I have had spade rudder boats (3) that I could balance the helm out on easily, but on certain tacks in certain sea states, this could easily be upset as the stern would rise up by the overtaking wave and fall to leeward (boat rotating around the central of underwater lateral resistance). This resulted in a 5-10 degree turn to windward, which immediately changed my 'balance' as I was not trimmed for this momentary course. The rudder forced down, regain broad reach, and then back to original course and rudder angle, and now balanced as before. But easier to upset than I cared for in higher following seas.

The longer keel-meaning longer than absolutely necessary to generate lift in the planform and achieve the desired ballast and righting moment arm, in combination with a speed robbing skeg on a semi spade, or a full skeg mounted rudder will resistance this turning force from the stern being pushed around, as a damper would. Its not much different than shock rates on a car's sprung suspension where the spring is pushing back to balance the car's mass over the axle. The damper is only there to slow down the motions, but it does not hold up the car.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:31   #499
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

On a long keel you have big bits of metal either side of where normally your fin keel would be. The full keel can not pivot so freely on it's z axis. The movement as some one has said is dampened down hence it tracks better. On a fin you only have sail and rudder to hold a line either side of the pivot axis.(and the hull of course) Gozzard have chosen a compromise which is a long fin keel over a full keel. They have done this to give some manoeuvrability at the dock side to stop them bumping into RM's and smashing them to bits. - Oh - Anyone know where I can get 20 sheets of marine plywood?
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Old 11-05-2015, 13:35   #500
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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By definition in a cutter rig bow sprit should be part of the running rigging ie rectractable, if it were part of the standing rig then the rig is sloop. That of course is how things "used to be" with a single mast vessel. But who cares about traditions anymore..

So confusing this sailing mallarkey..
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Old 11-05-2015, 13:53   #501
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Most people will give up long before the boat does. All of them can sail the deep if you have the proper weather window.


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Old 11-05-2015, 13:57   #502
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Most people will give up long before the boat does. All of them can sail the deep if you have the proper weather window.
Deep sea there are no weather windows.... you walk out the front door and then have to cop whatever comes your way........
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Old 11-05-2015, 15:00   #503
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Most people will give up long before the boat does. All of them can sail the deep if you have the proper weather window.


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Hi Venture1. I see you are new on here so a warm welcome and hope you have fun.
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Old 11-05-2015, 15:09   #504
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Is this the boat they call the "I sore"
Yeh, It's the I-sore version I-8
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Old 11-05-2015, 16:54   #505
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Deep sea there are no weather windows.... you walk out the front door and then have to cop whatever comes your way........
I waited out the Queensland summer hurricane season then crossed the Tassie and copped a winter 'weather bomb' depression near Norfolk I. Yachtie I spoke to on arrival said no need to wait out the season - just get a 12 day forecast and scoot across, spark up the big thumping diesel in the light stuff.

All well and good - what happens with an engine fault? Just get smacked around and call up the helicopter I suppose. 'Blue' means we can't choose the weather. Too many rely on outside help instead of the total self-reliance, prepare for all eventualities, that once was standard issue.
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Old 11-05-2015, 19:01   #506
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

"Blue means we can't choose the weather."

Not a bad definition, but I'd broaden it a bit to something like "Blue means you are on your own with no readily available sources of relief."

Of course that itself is somewhat arbitrary, but let's say something like over two hours from rescue, or over 200 miles from a SAR base.

So it could be 200 miles offshore, or near shore but 200 miles from a SAR base.....or Seatow, or other boats capable of rendering assistance. Or maybe just out of VHF range from the local CG with no other boats within range.

How's that work?
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Old 11-05-2015, 21:03   #507
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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"Blue means ...."

So it could be 200 miles offshore, or .....or ... or ... Or maybe just out of VHF range ... How's that work?
Me - I'm a traditionalist. Yachts used to go to sea and send a letter back from the next port on arrival. In between, no one knew where they were, no one expected to. Someone said the safest car on the road is one with a giant spike sticking out of the steering wheel, pointing at the driver; maybe the safest boat is one with no means of communicating with the outside world.

Lightning strike, knockdown, flat battery - anything can wipe out all of your electronic wizardry. Blue means not asking for assistance whenever the electric toaster fails, or the rudder snaps, or a pin fails in the rigging. Jury rudders, jury rigs, hauling a sail around the keel to prevent water ingress - they were all part of sailing, until now.
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Old 11-05-2015, 21:33   #508
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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AVS and STIX provides new information but I've found it simply reinforces my long-held view that a Swan (too expensive though), Island Packet, Rustler 36, Vancouver 34 and any of their close design cousins (traditional "old" designs, like the Nic 35) assuredly meet my requirements, while the Jenneaus, Beneteaus, Hunters, etc, etc, most assuredly do not.
So you'll pick a Swan over a beneteau due to its design......
do a search on the Mid 80s , FIRST series of the French Beneteau compared to the Swan of the same era.... . both designed by German Frers.
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Old 11-05-2015, 21:53   #509
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

34+ pages and growing.

To date:

1. No consensus as to what "Bluewater" actually is.

2. Lots of opinion but no agreement as to what kind of boat is necessary to sail in this ambiguous "Bluewater".

3. Most posters left have:

A. Never been offshore.
B. Don't own a boat.
C. Some have never even been on a boat.

Conclusion.....? Like the rest of these threads, those that do it, do it. Those that don't pontificate about what they are not doing.

Entertaining but typical of the thousands of other posts on this topic throughout the internet. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Paul, has any of this persuaded you to buy a "Bluewater" boat any time soon? Any one else? If not, why not?
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Old 12-05-2015, 00:41   #510
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I see it a bit differently and actually enjoy it.

Something like Philosophy 101.... where everyone is encouraged to work thru their own arguments and make their own conclusions.
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