Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-05-2015, 21:49   #481
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
It was 2am, 49 N, 20 miles off shore. The anemometer read 26 knots, but clearly it was blowing MUCH stronger, the anemometer read 26 no matter what, the wind generator sounded like a C-130 taking off, she was healing 30 and riding with the port rail in the water, the reef blew out of the staysail and I was a bit over canvassed with one reef in the main.

Had someone been with me I would have gone on the fore deck and put in a second reef in the main and re-reefed the staysail. But it was cold and dark and heeling. I was scared of going on deck and scared she was over powered. I was scared conditions would deteoriate even more.

What I did do was let out the main a bit, and let the staysail out a bit. She eased up a bit. I sat there for about 20 minutes just watching and considering my options.

Upon observation, the boat was doing fine. She was handling the waves well. She was behaving, not jumping around, just chugging forward at about 4 or 5 knots. The wind was predicted to drop in the morning. So I went back to sleep. It seemed the reasonable thing to do.
Often hiding under the covers is the only thing to do..

I just created a thread called "What is your most scariest boating moment" inspired by your reference to being scared. I think it's an interesting topic. Add your story if you want. I am sure it will be of interest.
__________________

__________________
paulanthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2015, 22:25   #482
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 680
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
...We bought a 1985ish Pape SteelMaid ... The keel will never fall off nor be significantly damaged by grounding. Ditto the rudder. ... I stupidly wandered into a rock garden one night and only got out by motoring in reverse using the rudder to push off rocks. Not a "blue water" concern, but...
Yep, that's exactly a blue-water concern, if by blue we mean venturing off the beaten track. Anyway, that's my kind of yacht (well, maybe speed counts a little but everything's a compromise). Thanks for illustrating an important point.

(I'll keep quiet now - listen and learn, take a look at the Westsail manual.)
__________________

__________________
NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 00:19   #483
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
These boats and their sister ships the Bayfieds have a following and while not to my taste they are far from ugly! I guess its like women and the choice you made, not too many guys think their wife is ugly!
Well, to each his own. But I grew up in a family of architects. And I learned that aesthetics lies in a consistent design language.
My dad used to point out houses where the architect for example had chosen to go for a brick facade with flemish windows, and then had put a greek portico in front. And then a thatched roof on top. What was that guy smoking he'd say.

Putting scrollwork and a clipper bow on a yacht, and then putting a modern glas windshield further back. Ugh... Hereshoff must be turning in his grave.

A lot of what Gozzard says on their website is just plain common sense. A blue water boat must be strong (but I'll bet that RM Yachts builds stronger boats for example).
But some of it is just wrong, and shows their prejudices. A long keel doesn't make a yacht track better. course stability has to do with balance. (And yes, classic designs were well balance, but learn the difference between correlation and causation...)
And some of it is silly. They reject reversed transoms because it "increases the physical length of the boat without adding space", but then put a huge bow sprit on int? To me if a boat needs a bow sprit for it's normal up wind sail plan it is just to heavy for it's length, and should either be longer, or lighter.
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 01:07   #484
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Halifax
Posts: 435
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Well, to each his own. But I grew up in a family of architects. And I learned that aesthetics lies in a consistent design language.
My dad used to point out houses where the architect for example had chosen to go for a brick facade with flemish windows, and then had put a greek portico in front. And then a thatched roof on top. What was that guy smoking he'd say.

Putting scrollwork and a clipper bow on a yacht, and then putting a modern glas windshield further back. Ugh... Hereshoff must be turning in his grave.

A lot of what Gozzard says on their website is just plain common sense. A blue water boat must be strong (but I'll bet that RM Yachts builds stronger boats for example).
But some of it is just wrong, and shows their prejudices. A long keel doesn't make a yacht track better. course stability has to do with balance. (And yes, classic designs were well balance, but learn the difference between correlation and causation...)
And some of it is silly. They reject reversed transoms because it "increases the physical length of the boat without adding space", but then put a huge bow sprit on int? To me if a boat needs a bow sprit for it's normal up wind sail plan it is just to heavy for it's length, and should either be longer, or lighter.
Well Bauhaus design succeeded at melding traditional materials with modern design, and architects designed many Brutalist buildings consistent in design but horrific in life. Any fool knows a thatched roof requires a Georgian portico.

Gozzards ain't my cup of tea but they are well put together. Reverse transom or no.
__________________
Brob2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 01:35   #485
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,947
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Wandering off on my own happy little way down a marginally off track path....

Sorting my ship's library... took a bucket full of books to the marina laundry the other day but today found this little gem at the back of the book locker... its a keeper... 'Bue Water' by Bob Griffith... mas aqui The Circumnavigators - by Don Holm - Chapter 21

Funny how little you hear about this bloke who circumnavigated south of the Cape, Tasmania, and the Horn a quarter century before Chichester.... mind you his book wasn't translated from the spanish for many many years....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0248 (1).jpg
Views:	55
Size:	50.3 KB
ID:	101812  
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 04:53   #486
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Well, to each his own. But I grew up in a family of architects. And I learned that aesthetics lies in a consistent design language.
My dad used to point out houses where the architect for example had chosen to go for a brick facade with flemish windows, and then had put a greek portico in front. And then a thatched roof on top. What was that guy smoking he'd say.

Putting scrollwork and a clipper bow on a yacht, and then putting a modern glas windshield further back. Ugh... Hereshoff must be turning in his grave.

A lot of what Gozzard says on their website is just plain common sense. A blue water boat must be strong (but I'll bet that RM Yachts builds stronger boats for example).
But some of it is just wrong, and shows their prejudices. A long keel doesn't make a yacht track better. course stability has to do with balance. (And yes, classic designs were well balance, but learn the difference between correlation and causation...)
And some of it is silly. They reject reversed transoms because it "increases the physical length of the boat without adding space", but then put a huge bow sprit on int? To me if a boat needs a bow sprit for it's normal up wind sail plan it is just to heavy for it's length, and should either be longer, or lighter.
Sure, It is common sense but they provide detailed rhyme and reason as to their design philosophy and material choice and they put to bed some of the argument we see here such as a solid glass hulls being stronger than a cored laminated one and they explain why this is not true.

The bowsprit is there to enable a decent cutter rig. It does a job as well as being pretty. Read Bob Perry's review of it. What is the cost over benefit of a reverse transom v's a bowsprit? No brainier to me. They have also designed an interface to the water at the rear so there is minimal compromise of leisure function either.

I am sure they would provide you with a wooden wind shield if it worried you so but clippers bows were used beyond wooden construction so not sure it is an aesthetic departure.

The RM is a different animal made of plywood and it is made of plywood principally because that material handling skill exists within the team. The choice to use it was very much about capitalising on an existing skill and knowledge base rather than being a better material for boat building. I am sure RM hulls are strong but I bet it does not have a stix rating in the 60's and would you want your portico made from plywood? Me not. The Gozzard will age much better. Would be still around in 50 or more years. In case you want to go off piste the RM provides a hull option where the outer hull is encased in another glass skin so what does this tell us. It says the stock item does not provide the same hull integrity of the Gozzard. Seems to me you may as well buy a glass hull in the first place.

The guys who build Gozzard boats know what they are doing but they are not competing in the speed performance end of yacht building. They are perfecting the art of safe, off shore comfortable cruising.

Incidentally, balance is important but wind conditions change in seconds and a long keel is not as sensitive as a short one to change and gives you time to go to the bow to fix a problem or go below and make that very important cup of tea.
__________________
paulanthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 05:30   #487
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Good compromise. Looks yammy to me.

__________________
paulanthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 05:42   #488
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brob2 View Post
Well Bauhaus design succeeded at melding traditional materials with modern design, and architects designed many Brutalist buildings consistent in design but horrific in life.
I've lived in a "brutalist" flat. The best flat I've every lived in. Good architecture does make a difference. But tastes do indeed differ.

Quote:
Gozzards ain't my cup of tea but they are well put together. Reverse transom or no.
My point was that it is inconsistent to reject reverse transoms with the argument that they are an inefficient use of total boat length, and then put a bowsprit on.

this way they're contradicting themselves...
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 05:50   #489
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Sure, It is common sense but they provide detailed rhyme and reason as to their design philosophy and material choice and they put to bed some of the argument we see here such as a solid glass hulls being stronger than a cored laminated one and they explain why this is not true.
AFAIK nobody who knows a few things about boat construction will claim that a cored laminate is inferior...

Quote:
The bowsprit is there to enable a decent cutter rig. It does a job as well as being pretty. Read Bob Perry's review of it.
To me it remains that if you need that length to be able to put enough sail up you can as well have a longer hull, and have more space in the bargain. Personally don't see why I would have to pay marina charges for a 50 footer, when only having the living space of 40 footer...

Quote:
In case you want to go off piste the RM provides a hull option where the outer hull is encased in another glass skin so what does this tell us. It says the stock item does not provide the same hull integrity of the Gozzard.
RM usually advises against adding the extra kevlar layer, unless you intend to sail where there is ice. That tells me that the "stock" item is strong enough for all practical purposes.

Quote:
Seems to me you may as well buy a glass hull in the first place.
But a glass hull of the same strength will be a lot heavier. The advantage of this hard chine plywood construction is that you have a level of strength and stiffness that you would otherwise only have with a metal hull, while still being very light.
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 07:10   #490
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post


To me it remains that if you need that length to be able to put enough sail up you can as well have a longer hull, and have more space in the bargain. Personally don't see why I would have to pay marina charges for a 50 footer, when only having the living space of 40 footer...

An extra 3 or 4 foot of hull with steps is more expensive. Way more so. Maybe there is a premium to pay at a marina that cancels itself regardless of bowsprit of reverse transom because of length but capital cost is less, maintenance is less and why have that big buoyancy bag at the back taking a bashing if you get no benefit of increased water length?

The bowsprit lets the mast be further back but also have a lot of sail forward.

I notice you did not respond to the stix rating I mentioned. I see RM does not publish it but the RM1070 has a an AVS of 124 and a stix rating of 36 compared to an AVS of 136 and a stix rating of 65 on the Gozzard. I think my cruising trump cards beat yours.

The RM will be faster(your race card will beat mine)and cost less to purchase but it wont be as comfortable or as sea worthy as the Gozzard. You pays your money and makes your choice.

The RM is a nice boat but comparing these two boats is back to comparing oranges and apples. It is beyond comparing coke and pepsi. They are designed to do two different things although the RM tries to do both and this is why the RM falls short with respect to cruising.

I have no doubt the Gozzard yard knows exactly what they are doing and why and if I was in some bad weather I would prefer the Gozzard any day of the week. The Gozzard 44 can even be configured as a ketch - How much more cruisy can you get than that?

Oh and another thing. Building with ply does not lend itself to very much roundy stuff on the bottom. The RM will give you a lot of short sharp shock treatment in heavy seas. It will keep you awake for sure.
__________________
paulanthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 08:42   #491
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post

(...)
But I grew up in a family of architects. And I learned that aesthetics lies in a consistent design language.
(...)

(...)
To me if a boat needs a bow sprit for it's normal up wind sail plan it is just to heavy for it's length, and should either be longer, or lighter.
(...)
Then you know that Steve Job's yacht is aesthetically perfect. But man she is an ugly ... (self-censored).

And, bowsprits: are you talking VOR65 or IMOCA? For they both have bowsprits, you know ...

There is no relationship between bowsprits and being too heavy for its length. Correlation does not imply causation.

Cheers,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 08:50   #492
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Then you know that Steve Job's yacht is aesthetically perfect. But man she is an ugly ... (self-censored).

And, bowsprits: are you talking VOR65 or IMOCA? For they both have bowsprits, you know ...

There is no relationship between bowsprits and being too heavy for its length. Correlation does not imply causation.

Cheers,
b.
I have to agree. That Steve Job's special is the pits. You would have to give me that. I would not part a quid for it.. Ok, maybe a quid but you get my drift.
__________________
paulanthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 09:38   #493
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,826
Images: 2
Re: The criteria of "blue"

By definition in a cutter rig bow sprit should be part of the running rigging ie rectractable, if it were part of the standing rig then the rig is sloop. That of course is how things "used to be" with a single mast vessel. But who cares about traditions anymore..
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 09:50   #494
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
And, bowsprits: are you talking VOR65 or IMOCA? For they both have bowsprits, you know ...
We'll these boats have a maximum design length to consider.
The 37' RM 1070 has a small sprit too. But it still has a longer waterline than a Gozzard 41 which has a LOA of 47!

Upwind you want the maximum waterline length. If you need X feet to be able to fly the sails you need when going upwind then why not make sure the waterline length is X as well? Why waste construction length by adding a big clipper bow and bow sprit.
Again, with the Gozzard 47 you'll be paying harbour fees for a 47 footer, whereas you'll have the performance of a 35 footer. I rather have it the other way round...
Quote:
There is no relationship between bowsprits and being too heavy for its length. Correlation does not imply causation.
But the causation in this case is real. The bowsprit is needed to get enough up wind sail area. Why is so much upwind sail area needed on a relatively small boat?
Answer: Because it's heavy...
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 09:50   #495
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: The criteria of "blue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I have to agree. That Steve Job's special is the pits.
I quite like it though...
__________________

__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: "Santa Cruz Sails" 26' 8" x 24' 10" x 15' 3" Genoa Cut Sail Joy Devlin Classifieds Archive 0 19-06-2012 17:22
Form or Function, what Ruled Your Boat-Buying Criteria ? Johnathon123 General Sailing Forum 51 16-03-2011 23:49
Help Refine My Purchase Criteria sweetsailing Monohull Sailboats 21 07-08-2009 15:08
"recent price reduction""owner anxious""bring all offers" sailorboy1 Dollars & Cents 10 22-01-2009 12:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.