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Old 06-05-2015, 14:24   #451
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I wanted to ask about costs beyond 45 foot.. Do they become exponential. maintenance, mooring etc ?
Thanks for the compliment....
Cost increase is more linear than exponential.
Moorage..You pay by the foot
Maintenance Costs....You pay by the square foot.

Spares and capital expenditures are at more of a premium since there is less competition/choices in the larger sizes, but then you often have the option to buy commercial parts at a non-yachty markup.
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Old 06-05-2015, 17:16   #452
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Would you get a center cockpit or aft ?
There is so little choice here of suitable, seaworthy (blue) boats that I must keep my options wide open, or else purchase overseas (an expensive exercise). My priorities are:
. below 40'/12m (to keep down running costs);
. purchase price around 50k - that's the killer! (but allowing another 20 or so to equip for offshore);
. structural condition good (superficial condition unlikely to be at this price, but I'm avoiding 'amateur' fit-out);
. stability ratings equivalent to IP/Swan/Vancouver/Rustler (may have to drop a little);
. 'heavy' figlass or wood/epoxy construction (most raceboats are built light to win races, not for longevity, and we're talking 30+ y.o. boats at these prices!).
Beyond those fundamentals, all options open: deep or long keel, bolted on lead or integral; spade or skeg or keel-hung rudder (all of which must be 'substantial' - this is a weak point in many designs); aft or centre cockpit; bermudan or cat-ketch or junk rig; engineless or crappy engine (I'm a traditionalist) - heck I'm even considering a Wharram or a Searunner (they stay inverted, but generally remain afloat). Given my constraints, choices are extremely limited here - in Europe or America the choice seems endless, even at my miniscule budget, but maybe the sea is always bluer on the other side.

(I realize my personal requirements in a blue yacht are likely of no interest to most others, which is why I've tried to stay with the fundamentals on this thread while I learned from it.)
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Old 06-05-2015, 18:21   #453
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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There is so little choice here of suitable, seaworthy (blue) boats that I must keep my options wide open, or else purchase overseas (an expensive exercise). My priorities are:
. below 40'/12m (to keep down running costs);
. purchase price around 50k - that's the killer! (but allowing another 20 or so to equip for offshore);
. structural condition good (superficial condition unlikely to be at this price, but I'm avoiding 'amateur' fit-out);
. stability ratings equivalent to IP/Swan/Vancouver/Rustler (may have to drop a little);
. 'heavy' figlass or wood/epoxy construction (most raceboats are built light to win races, not for longevity, and we're talking 30+ y.o. boats at these prices!).
Beyond those fundamentals, all options open: deep or long keel, bolted on lead or integral; spade or skeg or keel-hung rudder (all of which must be 'substantial' - this is a weak point in many designs); aft or centre cockpit; bermudan or cat-ketch or junk rig; engineless or crappy engine (I'm a traditionalist) - heck I'm even considering a Wharram or a Searunner (they stay inverted, but generally remain afloat). Given my constraints, choices are extremely limited here - in Europe or America the choice seems endless, even at my miniscule budget, but maybe the sea is always bluer on the other side.

(I realize my personal requirements in a blue yacht are likely of no interest to most others, which is why I've tried to stay with the fundamentals on this thread while I learned from it.)

watch this vid if u get a chance.. Probably similar to the pissy days you get but its a funny and interesting.
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:56   #454
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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found this maybe useful for you.

CAPSIZE SCREENING FORMULA
The maximum beam divided by the cube root of the displacement in cubic feet, or...........
CSF came up before - some designers still find it useful; I wouldn't want to rely on a formula that takes no account of whether the weight is located in the keel or on top of the mast; not now that it's been pointed out to me anyway.

A better name for CSF might be NSRF, Non-Self-Righting Formula, for that's what it tries to predict. Not sure it succeeds though - it certainly falls down if we include pilothouses or wheelhouses in our calcs.
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:03   #455
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I am not sure many of us would be looking for quality blue water boats "here".

The point is they are built in a handful of places and having done their adventures they tend to settle down in a handful of marinas, mostly strewn along the blue water galaxy.

I am sorry but if one wants a special boat, they find what they want then they go get it.

They may not be "here" but they are aplenty elsewhere.

And please stop asking for blue and for price within one breath - most of the time the blue and the offshore will cost you an arm and a leg. Perhaps an arm only if you go for the lower end of the size bracket.

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Old 07-05-2015, 08:45   #456
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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And please stop asking for blue and for price within one breath - most of the time the blue and the offshore will cost you an arm and a leg. Perhaps an arm only if you go for the lower end of the size bracket.

b.
Not sure anybody has. - I can't remember seeing that ask on this thread but that question must be asked a lot because we see quite a few builders who base their production in other parts of the pacific rim to bypass the labour rates of America.
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Old 07-05-2015, 12:49   #457
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

To be true blue to you, a boat ought to be blue all the way through...

-- design (scantlings, stability, efficiency, durability, design margin [hull, foils, rig], maintainability, maint. access/ease, inspectability [tanks, etc.] emergency access, layout, ergonomics, (watertight) integrity, sail plan [easily driven, balanced], aging, rig robustness, methods of attachment and joining, on-deck safety, crew security above and below decks, galley ergonomics, ease of steering and secure tracking on/offwind in different seas, capacity and organization for stores, efficient rigging runs, ease of line handling and short-handed operation, control labeling/organization, electrical and plumbing design, light, ventilation, sound & thermal insulation, drainage, cockpit volume, bridgedecks, companionways, hatches, portlights, deck fills ...),

-- construction (build quality, inspections/monitoring, appropriate materials, proper installations, security in rough/knockdown conditions, compliance to design intent and specifications, consistent use of best build practices, controlled build environment, yard reputation and track record, yard use of sailor/owner feedback),

-- outfitting and equipment (stuff even good builders don't do, again proper installations, equipment ease of use/reliability/redundancy/familiarity, suitable equipment choices, instrument interconnections, equipment accessibility, spares),

-- maintenance (scheduled, recorded, well-inspected after repairs, cleanly done, quality/properly sourced replacement materials, cleaning, stowage, testing, tightening, re-sewing, feeling, tapping, smelling),

-- crew readiness (experience and preparedness [book knowledge, training, drills, and experience in varied conditions], knowledge of boat and equipment, knowledge of local conditions, general seamanship, depth of experience in sail trim [heavy and light conditions], navigation, piloting, deck seamanship, boat handling, steering, anchoring, emergency procedures, mechanical/improvisational genius, ability to find ways around obstacles, etc.; plus crew health, rest, watch schedules, feeding, hydration, environmental protection, morale; crew interpersonal skills, tolerance, temperament, consideration, tact, getting along, flexibility, abiding by ship rules, sharing info concisely & accurately, respect for foreign customs, courtesy to/concern for shipmates),

-- prudence (level-headed, risk management, cautious vs. heedless risk taking, avoidance of negligence, providing for margin of error, back-up plans, avoiding vulnerability to single points of failure, use of judgment, common sense, forehandedness, leadership skills, listening skills, consistency, steadiness, even temper, organized, judicious, fair, able to recover quickly in distress, focused against distractions, ability to delegate, ability to maintain focus and work within span of control, priority to keeping boat and and crew in good nick).

This may be a broadening of the discussion, but really serious failure of any one of these categories could endanger the voyage, boat, and crew and make it a boat I'd be reluctant to trust far offshore or in severe conditions of any kind.
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Old 07-05-2015, 14:53   #458
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
To be true blue to you, a boat ought to be blue all the way through...

-- design (scantlings, stability, efficiency, durability, design margin [hull, foils, rig], maintainability, maint. access/ease, inspectability [tanks, etc.] emergency access, layout, ergonomics, (watertight) integrity, sail plan [easily driven, balanced], aging, rig robustness, methods of attachment and joining, on-deck safety, crew security above and below decks, galley ergonomics, ease of steering and secure tracking on/offwind in different seas, capacity and organization for stores, efficient rigging runs, ease of line handling and short-handed operation, control labeling/organization, electrical and plumbing design, light, ventilation, sound & thermal insulation, drainage, cockpit volume, bridgedecks, companionways, hatches, portlights, deck fills ...),

-- construction (build quality, inspections/monitoring, appropriate materials, proper installations, security in rough/knockdown conditions, compliance to design intent and specifications, consistent use of best build practices, controlled build environment, yard reputation and track record, yard use of sailor/owner feedback),

-- outfitting and equipment (stuff even good builders don't do, again proper installations, equipment ease of use/reliability/redundancy/familiarity, suitable equipment choices, instrument interconnections, equipment accessibility, spares),

-- maintenance (scheduled, recorded, well-inspected after repairs, cleanly done, quality/properly sourced replacement materials, cleaning, stowage, testing, tightening, re-sewing, feeling, tapping, smelling),

-- crew readiness (experience and preparedness [book knowledge, training, drills, and experience in varied conditions], knowledge of boat and equipment, knowledge of local conditions, general seamanship, depth of experience in sail trim [heavy and light conditions], navigation, piloting, deck seamanship, boat handling, steering, anchoring, emergency procedures, mechanical/improvisational genius, ability to find ways around obstacles, etc.; plus crew health, rest, watch schedules, feeding, hydration, environmental protection, morale; crew interpersonal skills, tolerance, temperament, consideration, tact, getting along, flexibility, abiding by ship rules, sharing info concisely & accurately, respect for foreign customs, courtesy to/concern for shipmates),

-- prudence (level-headed, risk management, cautious vs. heedless risk taking, avoidance of negligence, providing for margin of error, back-up plans, avoiding vulnerability to single points of failure, use of judgment, common sense, forehandedness, leadership skills, listening skills, consistency, steadiness, even temper, organized, judicious, fair, able to recover quickly in distress, focused against distractions, ability to delegate, ability to maintain focus and work within span of control, priority to keeping boat and and crew in good nick).

This may be a broadening of the discussion, but really serious failure of any one of these categories could endanger the voyage, boat, and crew and make it a boat I'd be reluctant to trust far offshore or in severe conditions of any kind.
That is a very comprehensive and considered list. Well done!!! - Yeh there is lots for people to nit pick through.

I was reading last night about injury to a boat when capsized which you made reference to in "rough/knockdown conditions" It really is hell on water and for a boat to able to get up from that and sail away takes a lot of thought. Stopping water getting through to the engine, engine losing fluids upside down, batteries spilling.. it goes on and on.... Great list you provided and great effort.
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Old 07-05-2015, 15:31   #459
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Thanks; put more concisely, a boat, equipment, and crew are a system, and rough deep blue is good at finding weak links anywhere in the system.

So, spending lots of time, thought, and money on one part of the system, and ignoring or short-changing another equally vital part, might not be the best strategy. Sort of like spending $5,000-plus on a life raft, then going for ten years without ever prepping a ditch bag, having a crew overboard drill, or getting the raft inspected. Or checking through-hulls and attaching plugs and double-clamping so the raft might not be needed.

Two classic boat fails I saw on charter boats from popular builders:
(1) An engine dip stick and oil fill that were invisible from the hatch under the companionway; one wanted to be a monkey with a flashlight, mirror, and prehensile tail to do something as stupid simple as check and change the oil. Wonder how well that was maintained?
(2) A boat with a swim-step transom that had a horizontal hatch that lifted open very easily to access a battery. Only inches above the static waterline. Felt extremely insecure. Battery didn't look well secured. I had nightmares of water getting into the after compartment. And wondered why that weight was there so far aft. Blue water fail.

Most schedules don't belong on a boat.
Except maintenance and maybe watch keeping schedules.

With apologies to a famous Supreme Court ruling, maybe a
"blue water boat" is a special case of "hard core boat porn":
We may not be able to define it too well.
But we know it when we see (experience) it!

(Potter Stewart, Jacobellis v. Ohio, 1964)
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Old 07-05-2015, 18:20   #460
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...And please stop asking for blue and for price within one breath - most of the time the blue and the offshore will cost you an arm and a leg...
b.
Everyone has a budget, whether it be grand or tiny. Folks like Slocum, or that French sailor from a century ago who sailed around the world twice on a shoestring (he was a dishwasher in some NY hotel!), in a tiny wooden vessel that survived a hurricane off the US coast that sank a much larger sail training vessel with all hands, or those Contessa 32 sailors who dipped their mast seven times between Falklands and Cape Town - they all go offshore in whatever they can afford. Josh Slocum found a hulk lying in a field and rebuilt it to the standard he wanted for offshore. The Liberdade was built from salvaged materials from a shipwreck!

Only some folks think we must be rich to enjoy safe, blue-water cruising - they are wrong. I've managed it so far and will continue to do so in the future.
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Old 07-05-2015, 18:58   #461
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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... or that French sailor from a century ago who sailed around the world twice on a shoestring (he was a dishwasher in some NY hotel!), in a tiny wooden vessel that survived a hurricane off the US coast that sank a much larger sail training vessel with all hands, ...
Name of Jean Gau, in the 1960s I think, sailed his 30' wooden ketch 'Atom' twice around the globe, surviving a hurricane without fanfare that took the lives of other sailors. He had left his native France to work as a dishwasher in some New York restaurant. Learnt to sail as a boy on French fishing boats. If he can do it, anyone can!
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Old 07-05-2015, 20:43   #462
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Cost of 'Blue':
I think Jean Gau and his little yacht 'Atom' so perfectly illustrate the low cost involved in serious blue-water voyaging that it's worth elaborating, as some may have been scared to death by the lists of requirements posted by some experienced cruisers above.

Jean circled the globe twice, and crossed the Atlantic about 18 times, between the 1940s and 60s, all from his earnings as a dishwasher, later a lowly chef, in New York City. His tiny, long-keeled wooden ketch weathered a mid-Atlantic hurricane in the 1940s, hove-to while Jean lay and slept below; the much larger and professionally-crewed, four-masted barque, Pamir, foundered I think with all hands. This indicates, surely, the most critical importance of stability and seakindliness - in particular downflooding angle and angle of vanishing stability - to the survivability of any offshore sailing craft. Jean did not require a professional skipper or crew, a multitude of expensive systems or devices, in order to calmly and in relative comfort survive a full-blown hurricane. In fact he was so dismissive of the ferocity of the storm that many doubted he had been there - only his log books revealed the truth. This quiet, humble, unassuming Frenchman, who claimed no special skills or experience - just wanted to sail the oceans without bothering anyone else - is a perfect example of the fact that 'less is more' when it comes to simplicity aboard a cruising yacht.

I'm not sure he even had an engine, perhaps someone can tell us.
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Old 08-05-2015, 16:14   #463
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Cost of 'Blue':
I think Jean Gau and his little yacht 'Atom' so perfectly illustrate the low cost involved in serious blue-water voyaging that it's worth elaborating, as some may have been scared to death by the lists of requirements posted by some experienced cruisers above.

Jean circled the globe twice, and crossed the Atlantic about 18 times, between the 1940s and 60s, all from his earnings as a dishwasher, later a lowly chef, in New York City. His tiny, long-keeled wooden ketch weathered a mid-Atlantic hurricane in the 1940s, hove-to while Jean lay and slept below; the much larger and professionally-crewed, four-masted barque, Pamir, foundered I think with all hands. This indicates, surely, the most critical importance of stability and seakindliness - in particular downflooding angle and angle of vanishing stability - to the survivability of any offshore sailing craft. Jean did not require a professional skipper or crew, a multitude of expensive systems or devices, in order to calmly and in relative comfort survive a full-blown hurricane. In fact he was so dismissive of the ferocity of the storm that many doubted he had been there - only his log books revealed the truth. This quiet, humble, unassuming Frenchman, who claimed no special skills or experience - just wanted to sail the oceans without bothering anyone else - is a perfect example of the fact that 'less is more' when it comes to simplicity aboard a cruising yacht.

I'm not sure he even had an engine, perhaps someone can tell us.
check out Gozzard Yachts Boat Information - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage. - has a lot of info about different aspects of design and construction. Interesting stuff.
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Old 08-05-2015, 20:58   #464
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Sorry to harp on about price but it's a key player for some cruisers, as is stability - most other things can be fixed, but not price and definitely not stability.

A 1972 Islander 36 with Monitor wind vane and apparently in pretty good nick just sold here at auction for NZ$30,000 (about US$25,000). Over 40 years old and hull looks like new, only 'a few cosmetic blisters' below, decks sound, inside a little weatherworn but quite tidy, plenty of good sails. So, occasionally a good, sound, basic, 'blue-water' boat does turn up from time to time!
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:08   #465
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I would not set small boats and suicidal people sailing them as a benchmark of what is blue and what is not.

A small boat is a small boat is a small boat. Can't remember who said it first. But I remember who said that to a small craft the storm starts earlier.

You want to go blue and kill yourself in a small boat that's your choice and I accept it and I actually support your right to do so.

What I do not accept is telling others that small boats are blue. Remember a part of CF members have never crossed. They may have zero experience to fall back on trying to weigh varied opinions.

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