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Old 01-05-2015, 09:14   #331
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

The Captain that owned 'Blue Dog', that was lost, states that just before his boat was built, Seaward changed hands and was bought by a guy that makes artificial sweeteners in the midwest. He was unsure if this had an effect on his boat.

He says he turned his navigation equip off during a bad storm because it was too bright. He grounded 60 seconds later. Well, this could happen when you turn off your electronics. Either him, or the delivery skipper could have gone inside and dimmed the electronics from there. I think this is what caused him to ground.

When he left Norfolk for the last little bit of his trip, a tanker called him on Chan 16 and said, "Blue Dog, are you sure you want to go out in this?" (real bad weather)

He also admits he didn't spend enough time becoming accustomed to the boat before this first trip. He didn't have the experience in that kind of bad weather with his new boat.

I think it's a Hull #1 problem with Blue Dog.

Nordhavn makes some good boats with decades of experience. This Hull #1 in the link has been for sale for a long time....a very long time. Massive price reductions as well. I'm not going to repeat what I've heard because I don't know if it's true or not, but no one is touching this seemingly great boat at a great price.

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

So, the new owner of Seaward came out with a much bigger boat than the trailerables they had been producing, the 46, and Blue Dog was the first? That was a stretch, and it would be a stretch for any company.
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Old 01-05-2015, 09:24   #332
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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The Captain that owned 'Blue Dog', that was lost, states that just before his boat was built, Seaward changed hands and was bought by a guy that makes artificial sweeteners in the midwest. He was unsure if this had an effect on his boat.

He says he turned his navigation equip off during a bad storm because it was too bright. He grounded 60 seconds later. Well, this could happen when you turn off your electronics. Either him, or the delivery skipper could have gone inside and dimmed the electronics from there. I think this is what caused him to ground.

When he left Norfolk for the last little bit of his trip, a tanker called him on Chan 16 and said, "Blue Dog, are you sure you want to go out in this?" (real bad weather)

He also admits he didn't spend enough time becoming accustomed to the boat before this first trip. He didn't have the experience in that kind of bad weather with his new boat.

I think it's a Hull #1 problem with Blue Dog.

Nordhavn makes some good boats with decades of experience. This Hull #1 in the link has been for sale for a long time....a very long time. Massive price reductions as well. I'm not going to repeat what I've heard because I don't know if it's true or not, but no one is touching this seemingly great boat at a great price.

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

So, the new owner of Seaward came out with a much bigger boat than the trailerables they had been producing, the 46, and Blue Dog was the first? That was a stretch, and it would be a stretch for any company.
I don't really understand the connection to the nav lights being dimmed and the boat grounding 60 secs later. Maybe some can help me understand.

I also don't understand why the other boat that was standing off could not throw a line and at least get blue dog pulled round on a tack using its jib even if it could not be towed.
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Old 01-05-2015, 09:57   #333
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I don't really understand the connection to the nav lights being dimmed and the boat grounding 60 secs later. Maybe some can help me understand.
He turned off the nav electronics because the displays were too bright. Presumably this means he gave up depth and chart display?

I've not been following this Blue Dog story, but 60 seconds does sound pretty quick to lose situational awareness of depth, etc. Perhaps he lost it well before turning off his electronics.
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Old 01-05-2015, 10:09   #334
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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He turned off the nav electronics because the displays were too bright. Presumably this means he gave up depth and chart display?

I've not been following this Blue Dog story, but 60 seconds does sound pretty quick to lose situational awareness of depth, etc. Perhaps he lost it well before turning off his electronics.
Arh... switched off because they could not be dimmed. I did not fully appreciate they were off fully. Ok I got it.. Thanks Paul.
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Old 01-05-2015, 10:19   #335
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I think a more critical way to look at this should be considered. Let's ask this question, "why is this boat NOT a blue water boat, please explain, inquiring minds want to know". A lot of analysis so far on what makes a Blue Water boat, but the better question to pose to the group is, why is this boat NOT blue water, how did you make that decision ?

I had a boat that someone would say that about, and I looked at theirs, and ours, and agreed to myself, but not happily. Its kind of like saying look at my wife and kids, now look at yours, which would you rather have ? (this because a boat is a love affair, you know...!)
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Old 01-05-2015, 10:23   #336
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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He turned off the nav electronics because the displays were too bright. Presumably this means he gave up depth and chart display?

I've not been following this Blue Dog story, but 60 seconds does sound pretty quick to lose situational awareness of depth, etc. Perhaps he lost it well before turning off his electronics.
Exactly... If you are driven onto a lee shore one minute after your plotter and instruments have been turned off, that wasn't the 'cause' of the grounding...

Their fate was pretty much determined at the moment they made the decision to depart Hampton Roads for Little Creek, with engines that were destined to shut down eventually in those conditions, and with a boat unprepared or incapable of sailing out of the situation they would find themselves in subsequent to the loss of engine propulsion...

Another classic example of a series of cascading mistakes and failures, the final outcome likely determined hours in advance of the event...
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Old 01-05-2015, 10:48   #337
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

It does look nice though. Seems they have change the hull construction method now.



"Recently we’ve begun to resin-infuse the underwater portion of our 46RK hull. It’s an exciting departure for us. The below-the-waterline fiberglass layup now has no foam coring and no Coremat. What we’re gaining by this process is a very strong and light layup that will never suffer from water permeation into a core material."
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Old 01-05-2015, 11:11   #338
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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(...)

"why is this boat NOT a blue water boat, please explain, inquiring minds want to know"

(...)
I would start with that innocent and unbiased observation (read: opinion; and beware) that up to a size, a boat is likely to be overturned (overpowered) sooner.

The above does not bear on small boats' ability to do the blue. But it does imply that a small boat will have to sooner allow for facts of life.

Now that we know that a small boat will, we can dismiss part of what we are told about stability. For she will. So rather than get obsessed with AVG STIX and STAX, make sure your less than optimally sized craft will withstand, and remain watertight/-proof. We want that small thing pretending to be blue to withstand being overpowered at least once. And we want the people inside it to stay alive too.

And meanwhile the big boat may/will fare much better. It does take much more energy.

And once the basics of 'oh please please slap me now!' pervert way of my thinking are satisfied, we can look at what adds to the safety, speed and comfort of a blue voyage: like adequate sail area for light conditions (some of your sailing will be across the ITCZ perhaps), how much ventilation is desired in rough going, how much water we want to carry along and how much help we may want from the auxiliary to enter that lee pass of that blue lagoon. Etc., etc., etc. ...

And so ad nauseam. It has all been said before. Taken down, printed and read.

So, in fewer words: preferably NOT a small one and in any case NOT one that will 'come back' without mast, steering, and with flooded interior / frightened and incapacitated crew. And then there will be a series of secondary NOTs too.

b.
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Old 01-05-2015, 11:43   #339
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I think a more critical way to look at this should be considered. Let's ask this question, "why is this boat NOT a blue water boat, please explain, inquiring minds want to know". A lot of analysis so far on what makes a Blue Water boat, but the better question to pose to the group is, why is this boat NOT blue water, how did you make that decision ?

I had a boat that someone would say that about, and I looked at theirs, and ours, and agreed to myself, but not happily. Its kind of like saying look at my wife and kids, now look at yours, which would you rather have ? (this because a boat is a love affair, you know...!)
I think it is blue water. Just not blue enough. Needs more blue to be added.

Bluer...
#1 Fix the fuel vents. #2 Fix the leaking hatches #3 Attach your halyard to your main. (A 1000 miles is a long haul motoring trip with no main and a bit of trim) #4 Get an anchor that works #5 Have one skipper and not two. #6 Understand your systems or don't go out.

More blue...
#1 Separate the fuel systems completely for each engine. #2 Get some manual ability over your keel. #3 Get some anti-slip system in the saloon to stop people falling over as reported.

Big blue...
#1 Re-engineer the skeg interface. So it cant rip out on 1 bolt with no backing plate and put a water tight bulkhead the other side of it.

Super blue...
#1 Put a bouncy castle on the saloon ceiling so when you do roll you don't hurt yourself.

If people can cross oceans in rowing boats there is no excuse for this not to be able to really.
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Old 01-05-2015, 11:54   #340
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I do like the aesthetics of the Seaward 46k but I think the internal layout would be better set similar to the Garcia 45 with the nav station forward so that it can take better advantage of the saloon windows for more people.
One other feature I forgot about, until glancing at a few more interior photos, that renders it a potential disaster for offshore use...

As you can see in the pic below, once at the base of the companionway, there are still FOUR different levels/steps on the cabin sole to be negotiated between the companionway, and the galley... Once on that narrow 'perch' aft of the Chartplotter Monitoring Station chair, one has the option of either taking a tumble down into the Nav Station chair, or down into the entry to the starboard quarter stateroom :-)

Absolutely mind-boggling, the danger that arrangement could present in a seaway is extreme... Even the simple act of bringing food or drinks from the galley up to the cockpit while in a peaceful anchorage could be quite 'delicate', to say the least...

this sort of 'multi level' living on a small boat offshore can be a real hazard, whether on deck, or down below... But to see it concentrated in such a small area, at the base of the companionway of all places - where it will be most likely to get wet - that's just unbelievable...


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Old 01-05-2015, 12:05   #341
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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One other feature I forgot about, until glancing at a few more interior photos, that renders it a potential disaster for offshore use...

As you can see in the pic below, once at the base of the companionway, there are still FOUR different levels/steps on the cabin sole to be negotiated between the companionway, and the galley... Once on that narrow 'perch' aft of the Chartplotter Monitoring Station chair, one has the option of either taking a tumble down into the Nav Station chair, or down into the entry to the starboard quarter stateroom :-)

Absolutely mind-boggling, the danger that arrangement could present in a seaway is extreme... Even the simple act of bringing food or drinks from the galley up to the cockpit while in a peaceful anchorage could be quite 'delicate', to say the least...

this sort of 'multi level' living on a small boat offshore can be a real hazard, whether on deck, or down below... But to see it concentrated in such a small area, at the base of the companionway of all places - where it will be most likely to get wet - that's just unbelievable...


Maybe so, but the elevated platform for the ergonomically correct, lumbar assisted, oversized captain's chair would make one feel really IN COMMAND, don't you think?? Just needs the gargantuan Garmin & that Cabo Rico's display of instrumentation to complete the Starship Enterprise look.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:28   #342
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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One other feature I forgot about, until glancing at a few more interior photos, that renders it a potential disaster for offshore use...
It is bad and the whole layout needs re-mapping. I think in reality this boat is too small or too big. It has fallen between the cracks of the piano keys. I think it needs 2 more foot to achieve what he is trying to achieve or just put the nav station forward like the Garcia and run the dining table midships. Its too small for distinctive sections. It has great proper thick windows and I would get very pissed off sitting at the diner whilst the lord and master was doing his captain kirk thing and could see out whilst I could not.

There is not much safety but not much conviviality either.
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Old 01-05-2015, 13:17   #343
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I'll admit that I mentioned the Seaward 46RK in another thread some months ago where someone asked about boats that beach.

Today I am enjoying the acute observations of Jon and others in this thread, and after taking another look at this interior shot, I can see how features (design elements) can be seen very differently.

I personally like the concept of a "beach able" monohull boat, which is a big reason why I like the Boreal 44 and the OVNI boats so much.

I also like pilot house boats and "inside steering stations/helm" too. But, I don't like the inside helm position and layout of the saloon of the Seaward. I think it looks a bit goofy to have that chair sitting out there as it does, with not much in front of it.

More importantly, I would prefer to have my head/eyes closer to the front windscreen, rather than what appears to be about 10 feet back from the glass. Sitting that far from the front of the pilot house front glass, I would think it would be like sitting in the back of a long station wagon car and trying to steer from the tailgate (back seat driver's view or worse). I would prefer to have my eyes much closer to the FRONT view port (window/screen/glass).

I also read the complete story of that Hull #1 grounding on the other sailing forum. The owner gave a very good and frank account of what he saw as mistakes he made and later of the things he liked about the boat (after owning it for 2 weeks) and things he did not like.

One thing the owner mentioned in his criticism was the very slippery high gloss finish cabin sole. He said that he and the delivery skipper both slipped multiple times and fell too.

I am going to post a few quotes excerpted from that owner's criticism, because he points out something that is pertinent in a discussion of what are "blue water" boat characteristics.
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Seaward 46RK Owner Criticism
"Things we didn’t like about the boat mostly came on after being aboard for a while.

Step up on cabin sole next to port side chair- I can’t begin to tell you how many times everyone on board stubbed their toes on this. We got to the point where we wore deck shoes in the cabin all the time. We also would forget to step down coming from the cockpit. A few times people fell. It was extremely inconvenient.

Sole decks in the cabin had gloss finish and were VERY slippery if wet- I’m sure this is not unique to this vessel, but if you washed dishes and got any water at all on the deck, the next person would slip and catch themselves or fall. My wife and I both fell numerous times as did each crew member.

Engine Access Hatch
"Main engine hatch- It is wide and heavy. You need to remove the short ladder coming into the cabin from the cockpit and raise the heavy engine hatch cover by hand. It was secured only by a screen door type of latch on either side that extended into a very, very shallow recess. You could check the engine and Racors at the dock or at anchor, but underway, especially in rough seas (like the night we had water in the fuel and ran aground) it was virtually impossible to open and also ran the risk of the heavy hatch falling on you if you got it open. Quite dangerous."

And here is that owner's opinion on that boat, a boat he had just bought and then lost during a delivery in the ICW and some short coastal hops.

"That is probably enough. There are other things, but the bottom line is the 46RK is a gorgeous vessel with sleek lines and goes fast. I would not however, classify it as a “Blue Water Cruiser” "
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Old 01-05-2015, 13:29   #344
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I can see absolutely nothing in that interior shot that I like... oh hang on... the draining board far left of the sink is rather nice.... above the 'fridge ...
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Old 01-05-2015, 14:20   #345
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I'll admit that I mentioned the Seaward 46RK in another thread some months ago where someone asked about boats that beach.


I personally like the concept of a "beach able" monohull boat, which is a big reason why I like the Boreal 44 and the OVNI boats so much.
I like the concept also. Think the design is ok just needs tweaking. I really would dump the current salon arrangement though.

The biggest problem is this is an in-house design by the same guy that builds them and not sure he is tooled up to build this boat to the engineering standards that would be required strength wise to make it safe. It is too easy if you are also the designer when faced with a challenge to revise a design that fits your weaknesses in a given areas or to try and cut build costs. - IMHO of course.

I hope the design can be beefed up and the manufacturing given out to a bigger company(I think this is what has happened)

Even though I am as like minded as you with respect to beach-able boats I am not sure there is benefit if your cruising ground is going to be the med. Which is were I would hangout but you can def see the attraction of that boat being used in the Bahamas. If I got something like that it would be a "just in case" boat but the "just in case" would probably never happen so I may as well get a 7 foot keel and just look at pictures.
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