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Old 30-04-2015, 21:00   #316
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by goat View Post
Probably the best, safest, and most unsinkable craft ever made would be the Titanic.
Uhhh no. But modern US navel ships are damned tough to sink, if they are at battle stations. They have transverse bulkheads with water tight doors that seal off sections of the hull, making each section waterproof.

OTOH, I was on the USS Kennedy, CV 67 when we ran over the Belknapp.

37 years later, the USS Belknap tragedy is still fresh in the minds of the survivors and families - VETERAN RECOLLECTIONS - U.S. Militaria Forum

The collision sheared the jet fuel pumping stations off the side of the Kennedy flight deck, and dumped jet fuel down the Belknap's exhaust stacks. The fire caused the Belknap's magazines to explode, blowing the bottom out of the boat.

The Navy flew every P250 pump in the Med onto that boat to keep it afloat (successfully).

The ship didn't sink but lots of folks died.

When the *&^% does hit the fan, sometimes you just die.
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Old 30-04-2015, 21:06   #317
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I take that as a "no" - you don't accept the findings, and all that followed from that incident, by way of minimum standards and comparative measures of strength and stability.

I take the opposite view and will be ever grateful to this thread for pointing me to those objective, comparison measures applicable to any ballasted monohull yacht, and minimum standards, below which no yacht can be designated as offshore capable (apologies for turning this into a duologue).
I replied to you - just took me a little longer coz was long winded. My change is based on the fact I have read a lot of disaster stories and many what we would call "blue boats" have sunk.. But if you look at the reasons it is never really anything to do with hull thickness or stuff like that.

It really is either the boat not being properly checked out before the journey or not understanding and anticipating the conditions.

I find minimal evidence, non in fact that a an Oyster(lets piss some one off) is any better than a jeanneau.
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Old 30-04-2015, 21:13   #318
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
Uhhh no. But modern US navel ships are damned tough to sink, if they are at battle stations. They have transverse bulkheads with water tight doors that seal off sections of the hull, making each section waterproof.

OTOH, I was on the USS Kennedy, CV 67 when we ran over the Belknapp.

37 years later, the USS Belknap tragedy is still fresh in the minds of the survivors and families - VETERAN RECOLLECTIONS - U.S. Militaria Forum

The collision sheared the jet fuel pumping stations off the side of the Kennedy flight deck, and dumped jet fuel down the Belknap's exhaust stacks. The fire caused the Belknap's magazines to explode, blowing the bottom out of the boat.

The Navy flew every P250 pump in the Med onto that boat to keep it afloat (successfully).

The ship didn't sink but lots of folks died.

When the *&^% does hit the fan, sometimes you just die.
They are tough to sink when they are operated correctly. Let me give you an example of my Grandads ship that sunk. The report found that the anthrocite it was carrying had developed a viscosity outside of the acceptable limits whilst sitting on the dock side. It got wet in the rain. So in a storm in January the antrhocite shifted and the ship then listed and started to sink. It was lack of information and knowledge that killed that ship. see what i mean?.. You cant build bullet proof ships.
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Old 30-04-2015, 21:31   #319
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Yes. The same conclusion many of the 'old salts' on here have come up with years ago. Probably why they seem snarky when yet another 'blue water boat' thread pops up. Probably the best, safest, and most unsinkable craft ever made would be the Titanic.

As others have said, get a boat that meets your criteria and go sailing. Whether it's numbers on a chart, letters from some government safety council, advice from a book, or personal experience, whatever gives you the confidence to cross 'blue water' is a 'blue water boat'.

You have all the information you need right now to buy your boat.

Happy sailing,

goat
The hypothetical criteria here is mid ocean - But anyway I still think a blue water boat even mid Atlantic is about philosophy and not product. But to be fair to the the novices, its the old salts that keep harping on about blue water boats that causes the novice to search for the holy grail of boats in the first place. But the process and discussions are still interesting and fun.
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Old 30-04-2015, 21:35   #320
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I'm almost afraid to ask this question.

What effect does a lifting keel have on a boat's blue water ability? Over 40 ft.

Newby thinking here, but I'm thinking:

Southerly....yes, bluewater.
Ovni....yes, bluewater.
Boreal....yes, bluewater.

Seaward 46?
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Old 30-04-2015, 22:20   #321
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Newby thinking here, but I'm thinking:

Southerly....yes, bluewater.
Ovni....yes, bluewater.
Boreal....yes, bluewater.

Seaward 46?
Given that the builder chose to place the fuel tank vents in the topsides, only inches above the waterline, I'm gonna go with a NO on that one :-)

One of the most stunningly stupid details of yacht construction I have ever seen...



The Seaward 46 BLUE DOG was lost after serious grounding at the end of a delivery from Stuart to Little Creek, VA - the result of engine failure after the fuel had become contaminated with seawater...

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Old 30-04-2015, 23:14   #322
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Wow, that's a good story. I've been looking for something like this. This was Hull #1.

Throughout this thread in the link, the Captain describes what went wrong.



Lifting Keel Yachts - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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Old 30-04-2015, 23:15   #323
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I'm also terribly sorry to hear of his experience.
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Old 01-05-2015, 00:35   #324
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
sorry spade rudders did not simply develop because the keel suddenly disappeared . ( if so what about skeg hung ?)



A spade rudder is a better hydrodynamic shape, that is clearly acknowledged by any NA worth his or her salt. equally a fin keel has a set of better compromises then a full keel, and that is why today with modern stronger materials , it is possible to have both. when we built wooden vessels, it was not possible to build string fin keels or spade rudders.







I dont know what books you are reading , but this is factually untrue, a proper fin and spade is hydrodynamically the best solution



Full keels have far greater wetted area, a number of other bad qualifities. In general , given a balance of compromises , they are outclassed by fin as a general comment.



simply because a boat has a full keel and attached rudder, does not make it more seaworthy, better able to handle storms , or make it " blue water" despite what a few of its proponents claim


As an engineer going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Fin/spade under bodies are not hydrodynamically better, they are hydrodynamically faster in general. They also generally do not damp rolling as well as attached rudder underbodies in certain circumstances.

I think don't know where the consensus is on ability to survive a storm unscathed but an attached rudder is certainly less likely to be damaged by debris impacts.

Don't get me wrong, my next boat will have a spade and fin but I go into that situation knowing the compromises involved.



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Old 01-05-2015, 03:25   #325
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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It could seem that way but for me it is about pulling the layers back and trying to determine the common denominator of a blue water boat.

It floats!
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Old 01-05-2015, 03:40   #326
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I think some of this has to do with knowing your boat. I don't own a boat yet but when I do I plan on taking it out in all conditions until I feel comfortable with its abilities and performance. I will do this before heading off shore for an extended cruise.


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Old 01-05-2015, 05:16   #327
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Wow, that's a good story. I've been looking for something like this. This was Hull #1.

Throughout this thread in the link, the Captain describes what went wrong.



Lifting Keel Yachts - Page 2 - SailNet Community
I am sure it has been resolved on other hulls but it makes you wonder where else a flawed design philosophy has been used on the boat.

However, I think some build merger has just happened between Hake yachts and another boat builder(sorry can't remember name) so may be we could expect better things.

I do like the aesthetics of the Seaward 46k but I think the internal layout would be better set similar to the Garcia 45 with the nav station forward so that it can take better advantage of the saloon windows for more people.
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Old 01-05-2015, 05:46   #328
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I do like the aesthetics of the Seaward 46k but I think the internal layout would be better set similar to the Garcia 45 with the nav station forward so that it can take better advantage of the saloon windows for more people.
Well, hope you don't plan on laying out any paper charts at the "Nav Station", as it currently exists :-)







Face it, a 46-footer with twin engines is a powerboat... I think that helm seat says it all, about how it will be 'driven' most of the time...

:-)


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Old 01-05-2015, 07:13   #329
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Well, hope you don't plan on laying out any paper charts at the "Nav Station", as it currently exists :-)







Face it, a 46-footer with twin engines is a powerboat... I think that helm seat says it all, about how it will be 'driven' most of the time...

:-)


I do agree that it is a boat that is not sure of its identity or function. I think this size has gone beyond the capability of this Hake chap. Maybe in the hands of a bigger company with greater resources it can be reborn and sorted out. I think this boat would look great with a round end at the stern but that compromises its usage as a shoal cruiser.

I don't like builders that are also designers. They tend to paint over their own problems. Very bad mix.

P.s That port nav station is pathetic and the owners reported that that area is an accident zone.

Some one mentioned that Bob Perry said that skegs end up being supported by rudders. This looks like a prime example of that because there was not much engineering going on where skeg met hull. Disgrace really. Cassettes sound like a neat idea but the concept is to novel to be developed by such a small company.

I don't think the helm seat makes much difference. It probably was not included in the original design and became an after thought to give back some visibility while helming and sitting down. I think the principle issue was as you mentioned.. #1 fuel vents(Even position was not the ultimate culprit but having "no" U bend at all. #2 Badly engineered steering interfaces.

The two engines offer redundancy and should not be expected to provide manoeuvrability as well though - That's a bit unfair. Probably with time many other problems would have shown themselves also.

If the first 3rd of the boat can submarine in heavy seas I also would cast doubt as the merit of the design holistically. Even the build quality seems suspect with leaks reported in most deck hatches.

Not being able to control the keel manually also seems a horror story waiting to happen as well.

Needs a complete rethink but I do think it looks sexy. My last wife was sexy but crap at everything else as well. We are suckers for good looks.

Unfortunately the couple who bought it purchased a prototype. It was not really #1 of a production line.
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Old 01-05-2015, 07:28   #330
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

About the Seaward 46RK being discussed above.

I am glad Jon made his sharp observations.

The inside helm station on that boat is unusual (see the interior shots to see why), and that nav station (shown in the photos above) looks to me like the goal was to accomplish two things:

1. "include a nav station because there is no way to use a chart at the inside helm"
2. "include a second captains chair for the admiral."

To me, both appear to be compromised. While I would LIKE an inside helm station and would LIKE a nice nav station too, I would prefer them together.

Looking at the Seaward "nav station" makes me think that space would be better served (more practical) by putting a clothes washer (washing machine) or a large freezer (or ice machine for those who like to have a cold one). It is on the same side as the galley and close to the galley, as I recall the plan.

But, then where would the Admiral sit?
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