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Old 30-04-2015, 18:23   #301
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Thanks Norman, it's been a long slog following this discussion, which has unfortunately had many diversions into rudeness, insults and irrelevances, so I think it's best to stay on topic as far as possible. I've gained a lot of useful snippets from sticking with it but it's been hard at times.
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Old 30-04-2015, 18:32   #302
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Way off topic - this is discussing boats, not skipper's qualifications. Please start another thread that I don't need to read.
There is an ago old history amoung sailors and the beliefs, omen, and superstitions that follow them.
If you were to say something like that to me, you could expect to be passed by when in need of help and instead of throwing you a line, you could expect me to turn my back-side and moon you........

correct me if I'm wrong, you didnt start this thread did you, or are you just a dock-cop
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Old 30-04-2015, 18:40   #303
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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There is an ago old history amoung sailors and the beliefs, omen, and superstitions that follow them.
If you were to say something like that to me, you could expect to be passed by when in need of help and instead of throwing you a line, you could expect me to turn my back-side and moon you........

correct me if I'm wrong, you didnt start this thread did you, or are you just a dock-cop


let it go Granpa, you've got better thisgs to do... by the way, I see you've installed the new anchor.. see ya in a few days......
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Old 30-04-2015, 18:42   #304
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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There is an age old history among sailors ... If you were to say something like that to me, you could expect to be passed by when in need of help and instead of throwing you a line, ...
There is an even older tradition of the sea - a mayday takes priority over everything, no matter how foolish or self-inflicted the incident. Let's try to stay on topic though - enough insults.
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Old 30-04-2015, 19:03   #305
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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There is an even older tradition of the sea - a mayday takes priority over everything, no matter how foolish or self-inflicted the incident. Let's try to stay on topic though - enough insults.
thread drift is part of the forum, go or bad and its not your job to police it..
The fact is, a skipper is a major part of the criteria in a "Blue Water" boat,
The greater the knowledge of the skipper, the less robust the boat needs to be.

We've spoken about what is needed to make a boat bluewater, but many of the options need not be there if you have a skipper knowledged in weather patterns, sea states, and popular routes across oceans.
A skippers knowledge is probably the most inportant part of the blue water criteria.

You could own a swan, an HR, or any number of qualified BW boats and without a knowledgable skipper , you might as well be on a raft.

Many post here have brought up Books and what they say, and two of the most inportant books aboard our boat are "World Cruising Routs" "World Cruising Destinations" which show where, when, and who is in charge.

With the amount of new people chiming in on this thread, knowing the criteria of what they have to look forward to in the learning curv of owning a BW boat,
The knowledge of a skipper is a very much part of the descussion.
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Old 30-04-2015, 19:11   #306
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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thread drift is part of the forum,... With the amount of new people chiming in on this thread, knowing the criteria of what they have to look forward to in the learning curve of owning a BW boat, the knowledge of a skipper is a very much part of the descussion.
You are quite right. Apologies. I've been rude and arrogant and have caused more off-topic discussion.
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Old 30-04-2015, 19:22   #307
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Continuing with the drift... I wonder if this focus on hardware (and software) is systematic of a new generation of sailors who more fully embrace the technological advances of a world of intelligent machines and drones that can remotely execute what was once only accomplished manually.

Is this a trend that will eventually diminish the importance of skills (and personal responsibility)..as the machines make things easier.... ?

Who (or what) is responsble when the sh%$ hits the fan??
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Old 30-04-2015, 19:40   #308
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Continuing with the drift... I wonder if this focus on hardware (and software) is systematic of a new generation of sailors who more fully embrace the technological advances of a world of intelligent machines and drones that can remotely execute what was once only accomplished manually.

Is this a trend that will eventually diminish the importance of skills (and personal responsibility)..as the machines make things easier.... ?

Who (or what) is responsble when the sh%$ hits the fan??
It could seem that way but for me it is about pulling the layers back and trying to determine the common denominator of a blue water boat.

It's not so important for me that it be heavy or long keeled or roll at 120 or painted black. I am interested in its mission statement.

A blue water cruiser must be able to..... (Fill in the missing specification) but no one knows.

It will probably be easier to prove that God does or does not exist.
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Old 30-04-2015, 19:48   #309
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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It's not so important for me that it be heavy or long keeled or roll at 120 or painted black. I am interested in its mission statement. A blue water cruiser must be able to..... (Fill in the missing specification) but no one knows.
But you yourself posted the 1998 board of enquiry report that stated, without equivocation, that a yacht with a vanishing angle of stability of (just under) 110 degrees "was not suitable to cross oceans." Is that not deterministic enough? Do you not accept their findings?
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Old 30-04-2015, 20:20   #310
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I think during this thread Journey I have determined for myself that a "Blue Water boat" does not exist.

What exists in fact is a "Blue Water philosophy" which is really about fully understanding that which sits between us and the water and helping it over come its limitations based on an acceptance that it will be good at some things and not good at others and recognising those differences and acting on them in context of the prevailing conditions and within the limitations of our own ability and endurance capability.

The colour blue is a variable even on the same boat and never a constant.
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Old 30-04-2015, 20:32   #311
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I think a huge part of the problem is that folks just getting into sailing want to discuss boats. We are looking for a boat, that is what we want to focus on.

OTOH, the "salts", and probably most others on the list already have their boat. They have made their own individual pact with the devil and discussing boats can cause uneasiness. "Is my boat optimum for XYZ". The answer is ALWAYS no, because no boat is optimum for ANYTHING, never mind for everything.

But what that also means is that there is no need to feel uneasy, it is what it is. The boat is wonderful even though it isn't absolutely the best at every single thing.

I am studying away, trying to figure out what all this stuff means. But in the end I will pick a boat with issues somewhere. My objective is not to select a boat with no issues, but to select a boat where the issues that the boat WILL HAVE won't have a major impact on the things I want to do.
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Old 30-04-2015, 20:34   #312
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I think during this thread Journey I have determined for myself that a "Blue Water boat" does not exist. ...
I take that as a "no" - you don't accept the findings, and all that followed from that incident, by way of minimum standards and comparative measures of strength and stability.

I take the opposite view and will be ever grateful to this thread for pointing me to those objective, comparison measures applicable to any ballasted monohull yacht, and minimum standards, below which no yacht can be designated as offshore capable (apologies for turning this into a duologue).
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Old 30-04-2015, 20:38   #313
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I think during this thread Journey I have determined for myself that a "Blue Water boat" does not exist.

What exists in fact is a "Blue Water philosophy" which is really about fully understanding that which sits between us and the water and helping it over come its limitations based on an acceptance that it will be good at some things and not good at others and recognising those differences and acting on them in context of the prevailing conditions and within the limitations of our own ability and endurance capability.

The colour blue is a variable even on the same boat and never a constant.
I hear huge sighs of reliefs coming from some old salts...
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Old 30-04-2015, 20:39   #314
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I think during this thread Journey I have determined for myself that a "Blue Water boat" does not exist.
Yes. The same conclusion many of the 'old salts' on here have come up with years ago. Probably why they seem snarky when yet another 'blue water boat' thread pops up. Probably the best, safest, and most unsinkable craft ever made would be the Titanic.

As others have said, get a boat that meets your criteria and go sailing. Whether it's numbers on a chart, letters from some government safety council, advice from a book, or personal experience, whatever gives you the confidence to cross 'blue water' is a 'blue water boat'.

You have all the information you need right now to buy your boat.

Happy sailing,

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Old 30-04-2015, 20:56   #315
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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But you yourself posted the 1998 board of enquiry report that stated, without equivocation, that a yacht with a vanishing angle of stability of (just under) 110 degrees "was not suitable to cross oceans." Is that not deterministic enough? Do you not accept their findings?
I think Nevis that the whole blue water issue is about having the correct attitude. The boat went over at 110 degrees. It may have gone at 120 also, We just don't know. The ultimate reason he lost the battle that night though is because he did not understand his boat and work within those boundaries.

The boat rolled as you say earlier than he expected at 110 but it filled with some water(wash boards not secure) and became ballasted upside down and therefore took longer to right. The skippers instructions to all were to hold your breath and wait for the boat to roll back. It took longer and they had to disconnect their harnesses and swim out. Remember it said in that report that they did not even know which way they rolled because it happened so fast. The guy was thinking 125 before roll but the design was 15 less than this in reality and maybe if he had known this he would have secured those boards earlier.

It was the ingress of the little bit of water that was the doom of that boat and not the diff in vanishing points. Force 8 on the shelf at Biscay. Think he would have gone for a spin even if the spec of 125 was true.

He had no drogue either and so were forced to run the engine and steer. He said it was because of confused seas that they had no drogue but if you read the report the skipper was reported to be quite cavalier. Wearing no life jacket in a force 8. It also mentioned that he was receiving weather info second hand whilst he was on deck from the kid below.

I don't know. Seems it was time to run a drogue, secure the hatches and hunker down in a soft spot.

The enquiry built an extra safety factor into the tipping point for future boats being the minimum to cross an ocean but i personally don't think it was this that killed the boy.

Some one did say the only way to let the boat handle all conditions is to get a submarine. Maybe you said this. Cant remember but I agree with it. However, whilst we want to be on the surface we have no choice but to truly and really understand what we have because no matter if it is a floating tank it will never be enough.
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