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Old 29-04-2015, 18:18   #226
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by FastCruiser View Post
second shot.. the bushings are about 4 feet apart...guess thats enough support.. but it was designed for off-shore use
Nice... but how is the skeg attached?

What sort of boat?

Ping
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:28   #227
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Nice... but how is the skeg attached?

What sort of boat?

Ping


My bad, its a spade, not a skeg, sorry
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:33   #228
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Is there a retaining pin on the outside nut on the pull rods?
No, they are nylock, and after a good look, it seems like it needs a little cleaning down there.. didnt realize how dirty until I looked at the picture......
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:44   #229
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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My bad, its a spade, not a skeg, sorry
Not dissimilar to mine....better a good semi balanced spade than a poorly built skeg....
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Old 29-04-2015, 19:54   #230
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Stated with your customary modesty and with your trademark :-).
"Customary modesty", huh? Thanks for the compliment, but I'll bet there's more than a smattering of folks out there who might get a chuckle out of that one :-) Here's what Herb McCormick wrote in his inscription to my copy of his wonderful book about the Pardeys, AS LONG AS IT'S FUN:

"Iceberg - To a great mate, a fine sailor, and The Biggest Gasbag on the Internet"

:-)

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Btw, and if you know, is there any function to the offset companionway on the Mason, or is it merely stylistic?
Looking at the line drawings of the 43, I can only assume it's all about tucking that full-width aft cabin under the cockpit, by bringing the companionway forward…




For me, companionways are one of the most important ergonomic features of any cruising or live aboard boat. As beautiful and as solid as the Mason 43 may be, there are 2 elements to that design that would be instant deal-breakers, for me: the companionway, and the location of the engine… Again, just my opinion, I'm sure there are many devoted owners of these boats who absolutely love them, in addition to a couple who are friends of mine…

In addition to the risk posed by that degree of offset, I see 2 other big drawbacks to that arrangement. First, negotiating that companionway in heavy weather could pose considerable risk, with its location so far outboard and close to the edge of the deck, and the fact that you're stepping immediately up to a raised bridge deck the same height as the deck, rather than into the recess of a more traditional cockpit surrounded by coamings… If there was ever an example of a companionway you'd want to be clipped in before exiting it in a blow, that one would be Exhibit A…

Secondly, there seems to be no good way to configure an effective cockpit dodger with that setup. A spray hood over the companionway alone is about the best you can do, or whatever else you might try would seem to offer little protection to one at the helm, or those seated in the cockpit itself…

Also, even in the most benign conditions, consider the PITA involved in something as mundane as simply passing food or drinks to the cockpit from below with that arrangement… I'm sure there are some folks do fine with that, but that thing would bug the hell out of me… :-)




With the Mason 44, however, they settled for a quarter cabin instead...





...which resulted in a huge improvement in the ergonomics of the cockpit and companionway, overall...

At least, to my jaundiced eye... :-)

(You'll just have to trust me, there actually is a companionway behind that Gargantuan Garmin :-))


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Old 29-04-2015, 20:22   #231
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Not dissimilar to mine....better a good semi balanced spade than a poorly built skeg....
Absolutely...

In all these skeg vs. spade debates, one thing I think many proponents of the former tend to underestimate is - given the overall depth and narrowness of most skegs - it can be very problematic to fabricate a structure of high strength and rigidity from fiberglass, with the problem of forming a proper layup at the bottom of a skeg formed from a female mold, way down where the highest loads will be seen...

As Bob Perry has indicated regarding the practices of Taiwanese builders back in the day, the process was often as described by another boatbuilder posting over on CA as "Oh hell, just stuff it full of fiberglass scraps, pour in the resin, and watch the smoke!" :-)

The first pic is from the amazing archives of Maine Sail:








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Old 29-04-2015, 20:39   #232
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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May I ask why you feel the first boat is non blue water?. It is a little out of control but looks like they are in race mode and having some fun.

The yachts are on diff points of sail and the latter which is running in 50 k would probably also be looking precarious if it was on a close hauled tack.

I read the comment thread for the second video and it was mentioned that they had to run the engine to keep the boat in trim for fear of broaching as in the wave trough the boat was loosing momentum and was then heaved with too much pressure on either rear quarter because the head sail was not able to do its job maintaining a downwind heading as it had also stalled in the trough.

What if the engine had failed at night, a time when the helmsman would have had the most difficult job reading the the waves?

Not sure why they were not using a drogue. Maybe a drogue would have given them no headway at all but my point is that it seems to be a bad mark against very heavy boats and undermines their "blue water" credentials if they can't maintain a squared heading simply because their momentum runs out inside a wave trough all the time.
Actually I never made mention that either one was or was not a blue water boat. My point, and only point, was that one sailboat had properly (in my opinion) prepared and reduced sail, while the other (maybe for fun) had too much canvas. That, was my point.
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Old 29-04-2015, 21:08   #233
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Actually I never made mention that either one was or was not a blue water boat. My point, and only point, was that one sailboat had properly (in my opinion) prepared and reduced sail, while the other (maybe for fun) had too much canvas. That, was my point.
The second one didn't look that much like a 'blue water' boat to me.... running in 50k under a bit of over sheeted roller furling genoa..... CofE up in the heavens somewhere... no wonder she was a handful.

Fair Dinkum Blue Water Boats (FDBWBs) have inner forestays and in heavy conditions run under a storm jib... In those conditions I probably would have set my #2 storm jib ... then my boat would be tracking along quite sweetly.
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Old 29-04-2015, 21:52   #234
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...Fair Dinkum Blue Water Boats (FDBWBs) have inner forestays and .... ....
At last - a definition of 'Blue Water Boat' -

BWB = a sales pitch, aimed at gullible newbies hunting for a quality product.
BSBWB = a sales pitch, aimed at dummies.
FDBWB = the real thing, without the BS!

Seriously though, for some of us at least, who have stuck with it, this thread has provided some neat, practical intel to help sort out some of the the FD from the BS - appreciated, thanks.
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Old 29-04-2015, 21:54   #235
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
At last - a definition of 'Blue Water Boat' -

BWB = a sales pitch, aimed at gullible newbies hunting for a quality product.
BSBWB = a sales pitch, aimed at dummies.
FDBWB = the real thing, without the BS!

Seriously though, for some of us at least, who have stuck with it, this thread has provided some neat, practical intel to help sort out some of the the FD from the BS - appreciated, thanks.
They still haven't managed to define the CFBWB ...probably never will......
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Old 29-04-2015, 22:01   #236
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I just checked back to see if there were any comments about the necessity of handholds... Nope. Just the final few commenters left, discussing like experts amongst themselves (None of whom actually own a boat)... the merits of good design and seamanship.


Those of us without boats should just shut the ... up.
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Old 29-04-2015, 22:18   #237
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Handholds along the length of the boat are essential.


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Old 29-04-2015, 22:29   #238
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Those of us without boats should just shut the ... up.
Not at all..... just sit back and learn to sort the wheat from the chaff...

Handholds... something I sort of process subconciously when looking at internal shots.

Those pics of that Mason with the offset companionway earlier.. that was down right scary.

The ship used in the BBC TV series 'The Voyage of Charles Darwin' ( 1978 )... whose name I think was 'Marquesas' or similar ... was lost some years later as a result of being caught in a squall and downflooding through an offset companionway with heavy loss of life. That led to the UK introducing quite comprehensive rules for boats in charter and a redefining what is 'crew' and what is 'passenger'.
This in turn is why you don't see any UK flagged yachts in the TdF/Peninsula charter trade.....
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Old 29-04-2015, 22:37   #239
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

The UK rules are here...https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...85649/blue.pdf
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Old 29-04-2015, 22:42   #240
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
"Customary modesty", huh? Thanks for the compliment, but I'll bet there's more than a smattering of folks out there who might get a chuckle out of that one :-) Here's what Herb McCormick wrote in his inscription to my copy of his wonderful book about the Pardeys, AS LONG AS IT'S FUN:

"Iceberg - To a great mate, a fine sailor, and The Biggest Gasbag on the Internet"

:-)

Funny, and just goes to show how easily you can misjudge a guy's character based on internet postings alone. Then again, "Gasbag" implies a bull*****er, as in full of hot air, etc. which doesn't seem to fit. Maybe Herb M. just meant that you were "prolific."

Looking at the line drawings of the 43, I can only assume it's all about tucking that full-width aft cabin under the cockpit, by bringing the companionway forward…



For me, companionways are one of the most important ergonomic features of any cruising or live aboard boat. As beautiful and as solid as the Mason 43 may be, there are 2 elements to that design that would be instant deal-breakers, for me: the companionway, and the location of the engine… Again, just my opinion, I'm sure there are many devoted owners of these boats who absolutely love them, in addition to a couple who are friends of mine…

In addition to the risk posed by that degree of offset, I see 2 other big drawbacks to that arrangement. First, negotiating that companionway in heavy weather could pose considerable risk, with its location so far outboard and close to the edge of the deck, and the fact that you're stepping immediately up to a raised bridge deck the same height as the deck, rather than into the recess of a more traditional cockpit surrounded by coamings… If there was ever an example of a companionway you'd want to be clipped in before exiting it in a blow, that one would be Exhibit A…

Secondly, there seems to be no good way to configure an effective cockpit dodger with that setup. A spray hood over the companionway alone is about the best you can do, or whatever else you might try would seem to offer little protection to one at the helm, or those seated in the cockpit itself…

Also, even in the most benign conditions, consider the PITA involved in something as mundane as simply passing food or drinks to the cockpit from below with that arrangement… I'm sure there are some folks do fine with that, but that thing would bug the hell out of me… :-)



All good points. Seems like someone got a bit carried away trying to make the boat look distinctive. An absolutely gorgeous boat notwithstanding.

With the Mason 44, however, they settled for a quarter cabin instead...





...which resulted in a huge improvement in the ergonomics of the cockpit and companionway, overall...

At least, to my jaundiced eye... :-)

(You'll just have to trust me, there actually is a companionway behind that Gargantuan Garmin :-))


Speaking of Mason 44's with gargantuan Garmin's, one fitting that description recently showed up at the dock at Little Creek, VA. Also well kept like the one in your photo, and somewhat newly purchased by a retired pilot from NH. He was just returning from the PR & the BVI's on his way back to Maine. He said he had bought the boat in Newport last year and that it had been on the market for awhile. Thought you might know the boat and its PO. Got to tour the interior and it seemed pretty narrow & cramped for a 44'. Only a 12' beam, of course, but I also wasn't wild about what seemed to be an overly compartmentalized layout. Like the 43, it was stunning on the outside, but what can I say, I'm an admitted pushover for traditional boats.
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