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Old 29-04-2015, 08:17   #196
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post

You respond by saying that DUI is illegal.

Well, I actually said more than that.
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Old 29-04-2015, 08:25   #197
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I agree, Masons are beautiful boats... And I'm not saying that an offset companionway should necessarily be a deal-breaker, hugely experienced sailors like Tom and Nancy Zydler sail a Mason 44, for instance... Just the sort of determination every sailor should make for himself, rather than being told by someone else whether the boat is "True Blue", or not :-)

Simply pointing out that an offset companionway is not a "desirable characteristic" in heavy weather, offshore...

Or, in the event one is knocked down while lying at anchor, for that matter...

:-)
Oiks.. That is very very very scary story indeed. I feel sad now.

What could you do to that hatch to reduce this risk? Any technology out there to mitigate it?
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Old 29-04-2015, 08:39   #198
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Re the downflooding in the Mason:

I find it hard to believe that a 1/2 inch thick Lexan hatchboard actually broke, for Lexan is bloody strong. I suspect that it is more likely that the channel into which the boards slide gave way in some manner, and this is a facet done poorly in many boats. Another of those little details that separate a quality build from the ordinary...

Well designed and built companionway hatches are something that are featured in many of the Aluminium French offshore boats. Their approach is worth studying.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 29-04-2015, 08:39   #199
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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LOL to annoy you, is it working.

Someone states, with massive authority (because they sail apparently) that a spade rudder is a better rudder than a keel hung rudder. No nothing to back that up, just statement of fact (opinion) And that furthermore every single designer has signed off on that idea. No nothing to back that up either, just statement of fact (opinion).

Now, is any of that true?

But you get annoyed when I pull out a book to discuss the matter.

What I was relating was not "other's opinion" but a scientific explanation of the physics (as I read it) behind why this was not true. Straight out of a book by folks trained to design yachts, discussing the pros and cons of keels and rudders, and how they work.

Calling that "other's opinions" is like calling Isac Asimov's book on physics "his opinion". It might well be his opinion but it has more standing credibility than your opinion, at least to me.

Now, if you had bothered to refute anything that I discussed, you might have enhanced your own credibility a little bit. Instead you attacked me.

In debate that is called ad hominum. Attacking the messenger instead of addressing the argument.

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If nothing else, this has been entertaining. The logic represented in this thread has been nothing short of stunning.
I am neither annoyed nor attacking you. Sorry if you took it personally. It is hard to convey tone on these boards.

RE: Designers; many designers differ in their opinion about how to build X. It's all informative but we have to make our own decisions at some point. Hopefully some day that will be you applying all that you have read.

Now, the original topic here is the adoption of standards for what is a "bluewater" boat. I said it is unlikely that will ever happen and explained why I thought that. After that, for me, I didn't see much point in a theoretical discussion of keels and rudders?

You may disagree?
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Old 29-04-2015, 08:54   #200
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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No, they don't all agree on that. Each kind exists for a reason. Spade rudders exist because keels have moved to fin keels (mostly driven originally by racing). With a fin, by definition you can't have keel hung even if you wanted it, there is no keel back there to hang it on. Keels have moved to fins for a reason, and rudders followed suit because of the keel. It was not simply that "spade is better".

BTW fin keels are not automatically "better", they have scenarios where they are better and other scenarios where they are worse. And BTW, huge seas are where they tend to be worse than full keels.

Typically, when the fin keel is causing problems, the spade rudder exacerbates the problem. Lots of bad waves can cause the fin keel and spade rudder to be very difficult to steer, when sailing close to the wind the heeling of the boat changes the hydrodynamic shape of the keel / hull, causing the boat to try to point windward. Meaning more attention required by the skipper, meaning single handed operation, changing sails is difficult because you have to constantly steer.

Full keels cause the boat to continue on a straight course and are difficult to turn. Bad right? Well... not if you are single handing and need to pay attention to the sails.

There is pretty much no free lunch. Each is best for some thing and not so good for other things.

So I will freely admit that is pure book knowledge. I read that stuff. But it was written by very experienced sailors for the sole purpose of pointing out that there ain't no free lunch.
sorry spade rudders did not simply develop because the keel suddenly disappeared . ( if so what about skeg hung ?)

A spade rudder is a better hydrodynamic shape, that is clearly acknowledged by any NA worth his or her salt. equally a fin keel has a set of better compromises then a full keel, and that is why today with modern stronger materials , it is possible to have both. when we built wooden vessels, it was not possible to build string fin keels or spade rudders.

Quote:
Lots of bad waves can cause the fin keel and spade rudder to be very difficult to steer,
I dont know what books you are reading , but this is factually untrue, a proper fin and spade is hydrodynamically the best solution

Full keels have far greater wetted area, a number of other bad qualifities. In general , given a balance of compromises , they are outclassed by fin as a general comment.

simply because a boat has a full keel and attached rudder, does not make it more seaworthy, better able to handle storms , or make it " blue water" despite what a few of its proponents claim
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Old 29-04-2015, 08:57   #201
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
LOL to annoy you, is it working.

Someone states, with massive authority (because they sail apparently) that a spade rudder is a better rudder than a keel hung rudder. No nothing to back that up, just statement of fact (opinion) And that furthermore every single designer has signed off on that idea. No nothing to back that up either, just statement of fact (opinion).
if one looks at the vast majority of yatchs today, from crusier orientated to ocean racers, one will see find keels and spade or semi spade rudders. This includes companies like HR and Najaid , OVNI, Amel etc

I think we can safety assume that most designers prefer it.
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Old 29-04-2015, 09:12   #202
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
I am neither annoyed nor attacking you. Sorry if you took it personally. It is hard to convey tone on these boards.

RE: Designers; many designers differ in their opinion about how to build X. It's all informative but we have to make our own decisions at some point. Hopefully some day that will be you applying all that you have read.

Now, the original topic here is the adoption of standards for what is a "bluewater" boat. I said it is unlikely that will ever happen and explained why I thought that. After that, for me, I didn't see much point in a theoretical discussion of keels and rudders?

You may disagree?
He has buggered off. Unsubscribed. Not sure he will see your post. You will need to ping him directly.
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Old 29-04-2015, 09:13   #203
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Re the downflooding in the Mason:

I find it hard to believe that a 1/2 inch thick Lexan hatchboard actually broke, for Lexan is bloody strong. I suspect that it is more likely that the channel into which the boards slide gave way in some manner, and this is a facet done poorly in many boats. Another of those little details that separate a quality build from the ordinary...
Agreed, it is a bit hard to picture... My drop boards are Lexan, the stuff seems close to bulletproof to me, and I've seen it used on plenty of high-end boats... Here's what Minick wrote about the failure...

Quote:
Now, it seems that this may have been an inappropriate material to use where only three sides are supported by a frame. The surviving section of the Lexan washboard shows several new cracks radiating vertically down from the unsupported upper edge. Along with the complete vertical fracture of the washboard, these cracks appear to have been caused by the pressure of the water.



My hunch would be that some weakening of the material could have occurred with the installation of the latch at the upper edge. Lexan is tricky stuff when it comes to drilling and through-bolting hardware onto it... I'm no expert on its properties, but I'm pretty sure it's one of those materials that needs to be drilled or tapped slightly oversized to the fasteners, to allow for the possible expansion and contraction of the material... Otherwise, the potential for stress cracking radiating from that work certainly has the potential for weakening it... I seem to recall that even when drilling and tapping Lexan, you want to keep the bits and taps well lubricated, to inhibit the possibility of weakening the surrounding material... So, perhaps the material was slightly damaged/weakened during the initial construction of the drop boards themselves?

I don't like the idea of drilling or fastening that stuff, for anything of such structural importance... I originally had the tops of my dorade boxes made from smoked Lexan, and after a few years noticed some minor cracking around one of the fasteners at the corner, under very little pressure...

I made the switch to StarBoard, after noticing that :-)
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Old 29-04-2015, 09:26   #204
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Trolling trolling over the ocean blue...
I guess your designer never locked the boards in when the weather came up.
Yes I batten down the hatches too.
And do many other things that you learn about when you sail...
But back to the entertainment.
Not sure you read the article. It was a material or structural failure not a procedural one. That's how I read it anyway.
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:28   #205
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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if one looks at the vast majority of yatchs today, from crusier orientated to ocean racers, one will see find keels and spade or semi spade rudders. This includes companies like HR and Najaid , OVNI, Amel etc

I think we can safety assume that most designers prefer it.
To me a semi spade is a skeg rudder and sure many boats use them because it removes the massive leverage problem you would get on a spade as the semi spade has two pivot points. So they are less liable to bend in a shunt or load but give some of the performance characteristics you get in full on spade rudder.

Spade rudders work very well in one direction. They have a fluid bias of being best suited to water flowing front to rear.

Spades don't like going backwards(think of drogue conditions) and behave a bit like a bike being cycled backwards. They become some what lost as they are having to provide steer capability and stability at the same time which they cant really do.

I am sure designers and builders would love to use them all the time because they are a simple solution to a big problem and easy to engineer into a design. As some one pointed earlier we are starting to see them come in pairs as a standard issue one to give an extra bit of bite whilst shrinking their height to reduce the leveraged loads but also to give better stability going "backwards" (I don't exactly mean backwards)
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:28   #206
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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You really don't have a clue...

Answer:

The skeg offers three point support to the rudder... has nothing to do with protecting the rudder from a frontal strike by a shipping container or some mythical submerged object. 'Will also offer some protection on the bottom edge of the rudder during a grounding.

And how many points of support does the skeg have?




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Old 29-04-2015, 10:32   #207
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Nope...

Disappointed (but not surprised) that the thread has gone so far off course as to only be left with few boatless experts discussing the same old B.S. instead of the details which constitute good offshore yacht design.


BTW: Do you own a boat? Have you ever sailed offshore?

I don't own a sea going sailboat, so I do t have any past mistakes to defend. I'm interested in getting one, which is why I find discussions about yachts interesting. I'm interested in the arguments or and con certain boats.

And yes, some arguments are more convincing then others. Some of the arguments you presented weren't very convincing.



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Old 29-04-2015, 11:00   #208
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I don't own a sea going sailboat, so I do t have any past mistakes to defend. I'm interested in getting one, which is why I find discussions about yachts interesting. I'm interested in the arguments or and con certain boats.

And yes, some arguments are more convincing then others. Some of the arguments you presented weren't very convincing.



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I agree K_V_B... Kenomac, you clearly have a lot of experience and knowledge to give. Why not give it freely without condescension. Sailing a boat is not the be all and end all in life. People are allowed to be novices and be involved in debate as well. That's how people learn and if your argument has merit and logic kenomac it will rise to the top and be absorbed. The lad wants to share his theories and test his rational and get "kindly" reasoned reply. He does not need to be lampooned.
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Old 29-04-2015, 11:03   #209
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I don't own a sea going sailboat, so I do t have any past mistakes to defend. I'm interested in getting one, which is why I find discussions about yachts interesting. I'm interested in the arguments or and con certain boats.

And yes, some arguments are more convincing then others. Some of the arguments you presented weren't very convincing.
So... no boat, no experience. Ditto Mr. Anthony Ditto Mr. Eisberg Yet all of you... experts on the internet. LOL

Dave who has extensive offshore experience on various boats offers up some free expert advice.... all three of you argue with him. I've owned three boats and lived on two of them for 6 years.... the same, you argue and disagree.

Dave,

I think it's time for the two of us to exit stage right from this three ring circus and go have a beer. Meet you in Olbia mate? Maybe Boatman will stop by on his way to Portugal?

Ken
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Old 29-04-2015, 11:26   #210
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Agreed, it is a bit hard to picture... My drop boards are Lexan, the stuff seems close to bulletproof to me, and I've seen it used on plenty of high-end boats... Here's what Minick wrote about the failure...

My hunch would be that some weakening of the material could have occurred with the installation of the latch at the upper edge. Lexan is tricky stuff when it comes to drilling and through-bolting hardware onto itů SNIP


Thanks for adding valuable content to this thread!

I concur (again). I think your points are well made in this case and appreciate you posted the links to the story of that boat and the photo too.
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I am no materials engineer, but a lifetime of making things with a variety of materials has given me a little practical experience with breaking things.

Some materials may seem very strong by surface appearance, but some unnoticed changes can occur due to their use. Sun damage, heat, stress fractures, crevice corrosion, and other forces or deterioration (e.g. age) could affect some materials in ways we might not notice in daily use.

Because that board has had hardware attached, I also suspect that some kind of fracture (invisible fault) was created during the installation of the hardware. The fracture could have been relatively small (near the hardware or not) and only when some force was applied to it would it split the length of the material.

I looked at that split in the lexan drop board photo you posted and immediately thought of the other split materials I have seen (plastics, glass, and natural).

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