The criteria of "blue"

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Sailpower, jwcolby54

Nothing beats experience, however that experience has to be interpreted. There are 500 people in an f1 race team but only two people drive. There are 50,000 people in Nasa (I could be wrong on that number) but less than a 100 have travelled in a spaceship.

The principle participant has never been relied upon to be the authority on cause but only effect. Basically you don't need to be a spaceman to design a spaceship but that's not to say it does not help.

We have the creators(designers), testers(sailors), press(commentators, observers and critiques) in a perpetual loop of development and outside of this loop we have another loop consisting of the knowledge base(archivists) and knowledge providers(schools of practise and theory)

Professionalism and amateurism both have a part to play in all of the above mentioned areas, armchair critiques included.

You are both valid and both of you have parts to plays in this cycle of development.

And with that I will unsub from this thread. It has kind of lost its appeal and I have many books to read about the subject.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

And with that I will unsub from this thread. It has kind of lost its appeal and I have many books to read about the subject.

jwcolby54.. Don't be disheartened. I and many others appreciate your input. I truly enjoy reading your posts.

Us older guys suffer from grumpy old man syndrome sometimes and I am sure sure sailorpower was just doing a bit of the grumpy thing.

Stay tuned bro... It is your forum as much as any body else's and you have no need to be a globe sailor or even have rowed a row boat for that matter to have validity here. You just need what you have shown us you have in abundance - enthusiasm! You told the truth about your sailing experience and we should honour and respect that because not many are so brave.

[Kenomac]

I just checked back to see if there were any comments about the necessity of handholds... Nope. Just the final few commenters left, discussing like experts amongst themselves (None of whom actually own a boat)... the merits of good design and seamanship.

[boatman61]

Its all 'Bullshite'.. a real sailor don't need handholds.. thats for 'Mudfolks'..

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Think I could risk flooding at this price.. This is a lot of beautiful boat for not such a lot of money.



Me likey very muchy..

1988 Mason 54 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I agree, Masons are beautiful boats... And I'm not saying that an offset companionway should necessarily be a deal-breaker, hugely experienced sailors like Tom and Nancy Zydler sail a Mason 44, for instance... Just the sort of determination every sailor should make for himself, rather than being told by someone else whether the boat is "True Blue", or not :-)

Simply pointing out that an offset companionway is not a "desirable characteristic" in heavy weather, offshore...

Or, in the event one is knocked down while lying at anchor, for that matter...

:-)

The big CQR was holding well, and all our earlier preparations were still in place, but visibility was nil in heavy rain and the noise was unbelievable as we tried to monitor the situation on deck. Suddenly, the boat lurched sideways with a loud bang echoing from forward and in a matter of seconds, we turned beam on to the wind and were immediately knocked down well past 90 degrees. As our much-anticipated hot meal flew over our heads, we tumbled to the boat’s starboard side, which had become the cabin sole. The offset companionway submerged, and an instant later, the 5/8-inch Lexan washboard broke in half, allowing a massive flood to pour in through the lower companionway opening.


While I fought to slow the torrent of seawater with a cushion, Lee managed to start our electric emergency bilge pump, rated for 4,000 gallons-per-hour, but we were flooding waist deep along the starboard side and the bilge pump wasn’t going to be effective as long as we remained on beam’s end. For a short time, it looked as though we would lose the boat, and even worse, our nearest exit was through the cascade of seawater pouring in through the companionway opening.


As suddenly as it had come up, the wind eased, and the boat righted far enough to empty a large portion of the water from the cabin into the bilge where the pump could clear it. I jammed a larger cushion into the companionway opening just as the wind howled back to life, and we rolled the mast under for a second time. The starboard chart table was almost completely submerged by the time the wind finally eased again, and we stabilized at about 45 degrees of heel.


In the Wake of a Storm - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

I would also concur that the spade rudder would appear to give the best return on your buck.. But, in an ocean full of hard things just under the surface does it lend itself to much protection. I favour a balanced rudder on a skeg even though I have only sailed with spade and have no performance experience of the skeg.

Luckily many boats now come with two spade rudders.

I would just find it hard to give trust to such a vital component that is quite exposed to risk and injury.

But putting a skeg in front of it is just moving the problem. What is protecting the skeg?

[Kenomac]

The offset companionway didn't almost sink their boat. Had nothing to do with their situation.

You guys need to get out and sail. The Mason looks like a nice well-built boat.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I just checked back to see if there were any comments about the necessity of handholds...

So you're disappointed because nobody is disputing the necessity of handholds?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Luckily many boats now come with two spade rudders.



But putting a skeg in front of it is just moving the problem. What is protecting the skeg?

You really don't have a clue...

Answer:

The skeg offers three point support to the rudder... has nothing to do with protecting the rudder from a frontal strike by a shipping container or some mythical submerged object. 'Will also offer some protection on the bottom edge of the rudder during a grounding.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

So you're disappointed because nobody is disputing the necessity of handholds?

Nope...

Disappointed (but not surprised) that the thread has gone so far off course as to only be left with few boatless experts discussing the same old B.S. instead of the details which constitute good offshore yacht design.


BTW: Do you own a boat? Have you ever sailed offshore?

[s/v Beth]

Keno, take the thread for what it is...entertainment. I saw boaty finally got involved, he must have pulled into port somewhere.
Nbs have to do something....

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The offset companionway didn't almost sink their boat. Had nothing to do with their situation.

Seems a bit surprising one would come to that conclusion upon reading that account, we'll just have to take your word on that, I suppose :-)

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You guys need to get out and sail. The Mason looks like a nice well-built boat.

It most certainly is, but like every other boat ever launched, that doesn't mean it's perfect in every respect, or may not possess certain liabilities...

Looks like Charlie Doane may be another who needs to get a bit more Real World Experience, as well... (from his excellent read on stability, for those who might be interested):

Another important factor to consider is downflooding. Stability curves normally assume that a boat will take on no water when knocked down past 90 degrees, but this is unlikely in the real world. The companionway hatch will probably be at least partway open, and if the knockdown is unexpected, other hatches may be open as well. Water entering a boat that is heeled to an extreme angle will further destabilize the boat by shifting weight to its low side. If the water sloshes about, as is likely, this free-surface effect will make it even harder for the boat to come upright again.


This may seem irrelevant if you are a coastal cruiser, but if you are a bluewater cruiser you should be aware of the location of your companionway. A centerline companionway will rarely start downflooding until a boat is heeled to 110 degrees or more. An offset companionway, however, if it is on the low side of the boat as it heels, may yield downflood angles of 100 degrees or lower. A super AVS of 150 degrees won't do much good if your boat starts flooding well before that. To my knowledge, no commonly published stability curve accounts for this factor.


MODERN SAILBOAT DESIGN: Quantifying Stability

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I just checked back to see if there were any comments about the necessity of handholds... Nope. Just the final few commenters left, discussing like experts amongst themselves (None of whom actually own a boat)... the merits of good design and seamanship.

There were comments about handholds. Some one said they don't use them. I said on the production models they install them as part of the commissioning so i was told. Others mentioned exact placement... etc, etc.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Luckily many boats now come with two spade rudders.

Yeh.. Very true.. I forgot about that. Well spotted.

[s/v Beth]

Trolling trolling over the ocean blue...
I guess your designer never locked the boards in when the weather came up.
Yes I batten down the hatches too.
And do many other things that you learn about when you sail...
But back to the entertainment.