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Old 28-04-2015, 21:43   #166
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
In the meantime there is real useful stuff not being discussed. As an example, how the rudder is attached to the boat matters in extreme weather. A spade rudder tends to be weaker than a rudder on a full keel.
The engineer in me says "when the choice is between A and B, and B is stronger, that does not automatically mean you should choose B".

A spade rudder is a better _rudder_ than a keel hung rudder. That is something that all naval architects seem to agree on. Having good, efficient steering is important. For example, will the autopilot be able to keep steering the boat in heavy weather. Now that I would consider a desirable characteristic of a blue water boat.
The important question is not "is a keel hung rudder stronger than a spade rudder", but "can a spade rudder be made strong enough".

And again, here most naval architects seem to think. yes, it can. Even the Steve Dashew who thinks everything must be 4 times stronger then strictly needed, just to be sure...
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Old 28-04-2015, 21:46   #167
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Written like a crew member and not a captain. So... Your long term plan is to crew on sailboats or hire a good skipper when you eventually buy a boat?

Interesting.

Your plan doesn't work so well for a cruising couple. I think most would opt for the better boat and rely on their own skills... And not hire the more experienced skipper.
We see the scenario differently.

And I did not write what you imply above. That was NOT my intention and I hope to clear that up below.

As I took the question to which I responded earlier, the question was which boat would you prefer to be on (when the ***** hits the fan), and as the previous discussion has spoken of the choice of "Its the sailor" vs. "it's the boat" I took another (third) position that the sailor was more important.

But I assumed others would be able to see that my POV was siding with the "skill of the sailor" rather than the "brand of the boat."

IF on my OWN boat (of any brand), I will be the captain so then it is up to me to be the one with the skills, sense, etc. to manage the situation (and/or crew) to the best of my ability.

This assumes I don't win the lottery and buy the dreamboat (Perini Navi). Because on that boat I would WANT to have a full crew and professional captain AND a great professional chef etc.

The key thing here is that this POV applies to ANY boat I am on, whether as captain or crew or passenger. In short if the SHTF happens, I would want the Captain (who could be me in some cases) to have the skills, sense, etc. to manage the situation safely, regardless of the brand of boat.

I hope that was clear.
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Old 28-04-2015, 22:17   #168
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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A spade rudder is a better _rudder_ than a keel hung rudder. That is something that all naval architects seem to agree on.
No, they don't all agree on that. Each kind exists for a reason. Spade rudders exist because keels have moved to fin keels (mostly driven originally by racing). With a fin, by definition you can't have keel hung even if you wanted it, there is no keel back there to hang it on. Keels have moved to fins for a reason, and rudders followed suit because of the keel. It was not simply that "spade is better".

BTW fin keels are not automatically "better", they have scenarios where they are better and other scenarios where they are worse. And BTW, huge seas are where they tend to be worse than full keels.

Typically, when the fin keel is causing problems, the spade rudder exacerbates the problem. Lots of bad waves can cause the fin keel and spade rudder to be very difficult to steer, when sailing close to the wind the heeling of the boat changes the hydrodynamic shape of the keel / hull, causing the boat to try to point windward. Meaning more attention required by the skipper, meaning single handed operation, changing sails is difficult because you have to constantly steer.

Full keels cause the boat to continue on a straight course and are difficult to turn. Bad right? Well... not if you are single handing and need to pay attention to the sails.

There is pretty much no free lunch. Each is best for some thing and not so good for other things.

So I will freely admit that is pure book knowledge. I read that stuff. But it was written by very experienced sailors for the sole purpose of pointing out that there ain't no free lunch.

And finally, can you make it "strong enough"? Yep. Until you hit the next bigger wave which bends the thing. And then you die.

So again, does that make them bad? I am surely not saying that, it depends on where you are sailing and what weather you will ever run into. And whether you have sail crew.

If I am soloing around the horn of Africa perhaps I should pick another design? Or watch the weather and only do so when no weather might blow up. Not sure when that is exactly.

And don't bother telling me that because someone circed in a spade rudder boat, that proves xyz. All it proves is their rudder didn't fall off.
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Old 28-04-2015, 22:45   #169
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I fail. I haven't figured out how to keep the sweat and poop in.
LOL...But why would you want to keep either in?
One cools and the other is cathartic.
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Old 28-04-2015, 22:55   #170
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Interestingly in the 79' Fastnet 23% of the boats rolled, in the 98' Sydney - Hobart only 3% of the boats rolled. So maybe boats have improved after all...
From memory, a huge improvement in racing rules took place after the 79 Fastent disaster - the rating rules at that time were producing incredibly unseaworthy hullforms and lessons were learned. Cruising boats never got that bad but raceboats have to push the limits of the design rules, so not surprisingly they exploited every loophole to increase speed over safety. Only by changing the rules could things improve.

For those who say we shouldn't legislate - it looks like we already have: it seems ISO 12217, and 12215, have already been implemented and are mandatory throughout most of the world - it's just nobody noticed because the standards are the absolute MINIMUM that any reasonable person would expect anyway. If we could afford it, wouldn't we all prefer a hull built to Lloyds or ABS or DNV rules? Those minimum standards are mandatory for ships built anywhere - it seems obvious to me that some minimum standard should apply to yachts, cars, aeroplanes.... would we allow cars without brakes or crumple zones? I think not.
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Old 28-04-2015, 23:37   #171
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
I am always curious to learn about that. If you care to share here on the forum or in a PM, I would like to know more of what you have seen/read in he different language journals etc.
The Dutch magazine "Zeilen" every year publishes an article about that years crop of what they call "vertrekkers" (leavers). People leaving on an extended cruise. Several individuals, couples and families get profiled, and their boats.

It is not uncommon for half the boats being profiled to be Koopmans designs. For the Dutch that's the quintessential blue water boat.
Never mind that some of Koopmans' designs have rudders hung on skegs that haven't been engineered strong enough and are thus known to move.
Personally I find the interiors of the typical Koopmans boat to dark, to cave like.

In France a boat with undisputed blue water capabilities is the OVNI. The Boreal 52 was blue water boat of the year. Peyton spend a winter in the arctic on an Allures 44 (another alu centreboard)... But these boats for some reason rarely make it to lists of blue water boats compiled on the other side of the pond.

Interesting bit of trivia: A longitudinal galley is often called "Europan Style" in the US. In France they call this lay-out "American"...

I notice often that US tastes are more conservative than European tastes. It's part of the culture I think. This has always been apparent in boat design as well. Just look at the following two boats:




The first picture is the Pearson Triton, the first series produced GRP sailing yacht in the US.
The second one is the Pionier 9, a Van de Stadt design. Also from 1959, and the first series produced GRP boat in Europe. Now compare the hull forms. The Pionier has a spade rudder. As do most classic Van de Stadt designs like the Excalibur 36 or the Gallant 52. Beautiful boats.
To quote Van de Stad: "A short keel with a spade rudder really is a no-brainer". He bases that opinion on research done in the 30 and 40ies in preparation for a Dutch America's cup bid that never happened because of something else that happened in the 40ies and managed to occupy everybody in Europe. Van de Stadt also claimed in an interview that he has seen more breakage with skeg hung rudders then spade rudders. Spade rudders are easier to engineer properly.

Growing up I mostly sailed designs by the famous French NA Herbulot. My parents learned sailing in a Vaurien, and so did I. I sailed in a Caravelle, Cigogne, Baladin, Mousquetaire...
Later in the Netherlands I sailed Valk and Randmeer, Van de Stadt designs.
Both designers are known for putting a lot of thought in how new materials like GRP and plywood can be used to build better (and cheaper) boats. They have advanced the state of the art immensely. It's interesting however how about no one in the states knows about Herbulot for example.

I personally quite like the discussions here. I'm not yet "cruising", I'm mostly doing coastal sailing, with the occasional short passage. But I'm learning a lot here. What I'm learning amongst other things is that a "proper blue water boat" doesn't really matter.
Most of the stories of people needing rescued boil down to two things:
a) badly prepared crew
b) poor maintenance.

Most people needing rescue need it because they themselves can't cope anymore, not because the boat can't cope anymore. Therefore I think that there are two things that matter most, that I will need to pay a lot of attention to:
- How to avoid wearing myself out.
- How to make sure everything that matters on board is always in good shape.

And there personal, subjective preferences do come in to play as well. I'm more comfortable in a boat where I can keep in touch with the sea when for example preparing food in the galley. Hence my preferences for designs where you have a good view from the inside. I also actually like those disparaged "Ikea designs". I happen to like Ikea design. As do many Europeans :-)
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Old 28-04-2015, 23:40   #172
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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So I will freely admit that is pure book knowledge. I read that stuff. But it was written by very experienced sailors for the sole purpose of pointing out that there ain't no free lunch.

And finally, can you make it "strong enough"? Yep. Until you hit the next bigger wave which bends the thing. And then you die.
So it seems that your message is that you yourself have no experience in any of this but you have chosen by some arbitrary criteria whom you want to believe and then you repeat why you think you agree with their opinion and express it as certainty?

If you have not done it or will not doing it yourself any time soon why are you even posting others opinion that is already available to those who are actually doing it? It's not like this opinion is not already readily available to those whom might find it useful.

Nothing personal but this is what these threads always evolve into. Opinion by those who haven't experienced what they are opining but are quite certain they know why somebody else might be right.

Fun? Sure. But useful or even relevant?

An example of this is your last comment. You say that you can't make it strong enough. OK but so what? Don't go? Ships have been sinking since they were first built yet commerce continues. Sailing will as well.
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Old 29-04-2015, 00:23   #173
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Not really. Your comparison, while an interesting debating strategy, isn't applicable. DUI is, rightly, against the law. There is no law (yet) about the kind/type/brand of boat that one must select to go voyaging. Unlike DUI, I hope that there never is.
You stated that all of these examples "made it home safely". I said DUI is unsafe and just because I make it home doesn't make DUI safe.

You respond by saying that DUI is illegal.

OK, nothing more needed on that front.
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Old 29-04-2015, 00:41   #174
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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If you have not done it or will not doing it yourself any time soon why are you even posting others opinion that is already available to those who are actually doing it?
LOL to annoy you, is it working.

Someone states, with massive authority (because they sail apparently) that a spade rudder is a better rudder than a keel hung rudder. No nothing to back that up, just statement of fact (opinion) And that furthermore every single designer has signed off on that idea. No nothing to back that up either, just statement of fact (opinion).

Now, is any of that true?

But you get annoyed when I pull out a book to discuss the matter.

What I was relating was not "other's opinion" but a scientific explanation of the physics (as I read it) behind why this was not true. Straight out of a book by folks trained to design yachts, discussing the pros and cons of keels and rudders, and how they work.

Calling that "other's opinions" is like calling Isac Asimov's book on physics "his opinion". It might well be his opinion but it has more standing credibility than your opinion, at least to me.

Now, if you had bothered to refute anything that I discussed, you might have enhanced your own credibility a little bit. Instead you attacked me.

In debate that is called ad hominum. Attacking the messenger instead of addressing the argument.

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If nothing else, this has been entertaining. The logic represented in this thread has been nothing short of stunning.
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Old 29-04-2015, 03:50   #175
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Sailpower, jwcolby54

Nothing beats experience, however that experience has to be interpreted. There are 500 people in an f1 race team but only two people drive. There are 50,000 people in Nasa (I could be wrong on that number) but less than a 100 have travelled in a spaceship.

The principle participant has never been relied upon to be the authority on cause but only effect. Basically you don't need to be a spaceman to design a spaceship but that's not to say it does not help.

We have the creators(designers), testers(sailors), press(commentators, observers and critiques) in a perpetual loop of development and outside of this loop we have another loop consisting of the knowledge base(archivists) and knowledge providers(schools of practise and theory)

Professionalism and amateurism both have a part to play in all of the above mentioned areas, armchair critiques included.

You are both valid and both of you have parts to plays in this cycle of development.
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Old 29-04-2015, 04:09   #176
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Someone states, with massive authority (because they sail apparently) that a spade rudder is a better rudder than a keel hung rudder. No nothing to back that up, just statement of fact (opinion) And that furthermore every single designer has signed off on that idea. No nothing to back that up either, just statement of fact (opinion).
I can back that up with the opinion of several designers.

I have links to interviews with Van de Stadt. Unfortunately all in Dutch. Maybe one day I will translate them, as they're quite interesting.

Van de Stadt tells in one how research done in the Netherlands already before WW II showed that balanced spade rudders were simply better rudders. With better meaning: Making a boat easier to steer.
That is what a rudder does, after all.
He also recollects how he had trouble convincing other naval architects of the same. Olin Stephens for example was skeptical, until Van de Stadt beat him in the Fastnet in a boat that was significantly smaller than the one Stephens' was reading, yet still faster...
Once you've come to the conclusion that a spade rudder is a better rudder, the next thing you need to do is engineer it so that it survives whatever nature throws at the boat. But that is just an exercise in engineering.

Steve Dashew seems to be of the same opinion. To quote hime from "Cruising Encyclopedia" (pages 414,415):
"The three basic rudder configurations are keel-attached, keg-mounted, and spade. The spade is by far the most efficient (..). Of course, structural issues should be evaluated. (...) The most important thing to consider is how well the boat handles in heavy weather. In this situation the spade rudder wins hands down, both in terms of steering effectiveness and the power the spade requires to be exerted to keep the boat on course"

Then there is Sponberg on keel and rudder design. He writes that engineering a skeg hung rudder well is more difficult than engineering a spade rudder well.
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/K...ngineering.pdf

So now we can go back to discussing why all those people don't know what they're talking about...
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Old 29-04-2015, 04:42   #177
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I can back that up with the opinion of several designers.

I have links to interviews with Van de Stadt. Unfortunately all in Dutch. Maybe one day I will translate them, as they're quite interesting.

Van de Stadt tells in one how research done in the Netherlands already before WW II showed that balanced spade rudders were simply better rudders. With better meaning: Making a boat easier to steer.
That is what a rudder does, after all.
He also recollects how he had trouble convincing other naval architects of the same. Olin Stephens for example was skeptical, until Van de Stadt beat him in the Fastnet in a boat that was significantly smaller than the one Stephens' was reading, yet still faster...
Once you've come to the conclusion that a spade rudder is a better rudder, the next thing you need to do is engineer it so that it survives whatever nature throws at the boat. But that is just an exercise in engineering.

Steve Dashew seems to be of the same opinion. To quote hime from "Cruising Encyclopedia" (pages 414,415):
"The three basic rudder configurations are keel-attached, keg-mounted, and spade. The spade is by far the most efficient (..). Of course, structural issues should be evaluated. (...) The most important thing to consider is how well the boat handles in heavy weather. In this situation the spade rudder wins hands down, both in terms of steering effectiveness and the power the spade requires to be exerted to keep the boat on course"

Then there is Sponberg on keel and rudder design. He writes that engineering a skeg hung rudder well is more difficult than engineering a spade rudder well.
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/K...ngineering.pdf

So now we can go back to discussing why all those people don't know what they're talking about...
I would also concur that the spade rudder would appear to give the best return on your buck.. But, in an ocean full of hard things just under the surface does it lend itself to much protection. I favour a balanced rudder on a skeg even though I have only sailed with spade and have no performance experience of the skeg. I would just find it hard to give trust to such a vital component that is quite exposed to risk and injury. Off shore is a long way to be up the creek without a paddle. For blue water cruising I would mark the spade rudder down unless it was some kind of kicking devise but then it would have to have a pivot point located on the transom which I don't like because it interferes with other stuff.
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Old 29-04-2015, 04:54   #178
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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.. But, in an ocean full of hard things just under the surface
You must be spending time in a special ocean
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Old 29-04-2015, 05:02   #179
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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You must be spending time in a special ocean
Containers, trees, rocks, beaches, nets, moby dick's, sub marines, sea monsters? - These don't count.. I forgot. Stupid me.

There be dragons in those high sea's me matey.
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Old 29-04-2015, 05:25   #180
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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With that decidedly offset companionway on the Mason, the answer to that question could depend upon which tack you're on... :-)

Definitely an undesirable characteristic in an offshore boat, Joe Minick learned that the hard way a few years ago when they were knocked down to starboard during a microburst at anchor in Greece...

If the Benny is one of the First Series designed by German Frers back in the 80's, I'd be pretty content with that...

The late Jim Mertz did 30 Newport-Bermuda Races, and 7 Marion-Bermudas... I expect he knew a thing or 2 about what makes for a good boat offshore...

Under Way | Soundings Online

His last boat, ALLEGRA, was a First 42...
Think I could risk flooding at this price.. This is a lot of beautiful boat for not such a lot of money.



Me likey very muchy..

1988 Mason 54 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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