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Old 22-06-2014, 14:39   #1
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Tell-Tale Placement

Hi folks!!
Well.. I got both the mainsail and the jib up yesterday.. fixed the problem from last week... repaired a tear in the sail, and some other minor maintenance. So, thank you for your input regarding that..

Now I have a new question this week. Again.. I am very new to sailing.. (I've been on my sailboat 3 times now.. never been on a sailboat before then..so just learning.. )

So... I want to add some "tell-tales" to both sails to help me get a feel and understanding for sail trim. So, I have 3 related questions..

1. My husband bought some.. they are a plastic streamer type material.. that stick on to the sail.is that ok? or is there a better, more effective type out there to use...?
2. where and how many should be placed on each side of the sail?
3.do I need to remove the sails completely? or can I just partially raise the sail, and attach them?

Thanks in advance...
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Old 22-06-2014, 16:19   #2
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Stick 'em on! Do you have a sailing book to show you where?

When I was a kid, racing my Sunfish, I used cassette tape for tell tales, gently working it through the fabric so one piece worked on both sides. But I would have rather had the stick on tell tales if I had had the funds.
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Old 22-06-2014, 16:31   #3
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

The plastic streamers will work on the mainsail. You can attach them to the ends of the battens.

Yarn works better for the jib. Attach 6 inch pieces with round one-side stickies on both sides of the sail. Most boats I've been on attach the jib tell tales further from the luff than indicated in this article and I've never seen a boat with telltales on the leech of the jib but it's a start:

WB-Sails - Aerodynamics

Everything you need should be available at your local marine outfitter.
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Old 22-06-2014, 18:21   #4
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
Hi folks!!

So... I want to add some "tell-tales" to both sails to help me get a feel and understanding for sail trim. So, I have 3 related questions..

1. My husband bought some.. they are a plastic streamer type material.. that stick on to the sail.is that ok? or is there a better, more effective type out there to use...?
2. where and how many should be placed on each side of the sail?
3.do I need to remove the sails completely? or can I just partially raise the sail, and attach them?

Thanks in advance...
If you don't know where to stick them you need to read up a bit more and ask some questions. Follow the link provided by OldFrog and pay particular attention to the section on boundary layers and bubbles.

I disagree with the article on only needing tells on the main's trailing edge especially for a beginner.

The tells let you see what is happening to the airflow on various parts of the sail. The mainsail can be very complicated to trim and trailing edge tells only tell you what's happening as the airflow departs the sail. If you plan to get good at this the more info you have (to a certain point) the better.

The mainsail could have halyard tension, mainsheet, traveller, outhaul, vang, cunningham and adjustable backstay all influencing its shape. You could be stalled at the bottom and drawing at the top for example.

Having tells on the sail can help you verify your theory why the trailing edge tells are not behaving.

The genny has halyard tension, genny car position (sheeting angle) and some racing gennys will have a cunningham.

You clearly don't want the sails looking like tinseled Christmas trees and it depends on the size of your sail.

First - Keep the trailing edges of any tells away from sail seams - it is annoying when they get stuck - especially in low winds when you are trying to get the sail as efficient as possible.

Genny - Definitely 3 sets vertically. One in the vertical mid-point, one a little less than 1/3 down and one a little more than 1/3 up. Don't forget to stagger them vertically by a couple inches so you can see both sides. For and aft - depending on the roach you may only need two sets - a 150 genny might take 3 sets. The aft most one should be just aft of the "normally" deepest part of the roach.

Mainsail - Vertically the same as the genny. Again depending on the roach length you may need 2 or 3 sets - 2 is probably ok. 1 just at aft of the deepest part of the sail (usually the first third) and the second pair split the difference to the leading edge. The trailing edge flies are key IMO and for them I always prefer yarn over tape.

mainsail tapes can also help figure out genny/main interaction in the slot.

I also prefer yarn over tape everywhere as I fell the yarn is more sensitive and the "flate tape" resists flying up and down a bit more. The tape dries faster after rain and lasts longer.

Whew - TMI, sorry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
The plastic streamers will work on the mainsail. You can attach them to the ends of the battens.

Yarn works better for the jib. Attach 6 inch pieces with round one-side stickies on both sides of the sail. Most boats I've been on attach the jib tell tales further from the luff than indicated in this article and I've never seen a boat with telltales on the leech of the jib but it's a start:

WB-Sails - Aerodynamics

Everything you need should be available at your local marine outfitter.
Nice link.

I took the NorthSails weekend sail trimming seminar and would recommend it to anyone.

Their website also is great and has live graphics demonstrating each concept.

North Sails: Mainsail Trim

What I really like is they lay out a "sequence" for adjusting the sails so there is some logic behind it.

I sailed with a guy (finally gave up) that would sheet the main on a beat with the mainsheet and leave the traveller locked. He had no idea what the mainsheet did vs. the traveller and was super stubborn. I finally left that race boat and refused/refuse to sail with him to this day.

When you take the course you get 2 CDs. One has a sailing simulator where you can input different conditions and then sail and trim a virtual boat around a course trying to achieve maximum boat speed.

Very cool.
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Old 22-06-2014, 19:30   #5
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

I never get the tell-tails at the leading edge of my furling jib to come good. The roller bit interferes with having anything close to a laminar airflow for about ten or 15 percent of the sail.
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Old 23-06-2014, 10:43   #6
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Given that the OP is a beginner, I do not think she needs tell tales up and down the luff to evaluate lead placement. I would just put one set of telltales (green on starboard, red on port side of sail) 10-14" aft of the luff, low enough on each jib/genoa so she can see them easily from the helm. That way she is more likely to use them regularly (which is how you learn to use them). I would not bother with putting them on the main.
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Old 23-06-2014, 11:11   #7
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Here's a link to an article with pictures. Also, I believe the package the tell-tales came in also has some directions:

Jasper & Bailey Sailmakers

It was Davis Air Flow Tels that had the diagrams:

http://www.davisnet.com/product_docu...Airflo_INS.PDF
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Old 23-06-2014, 11:39   #8
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

There are some excellent articles by Arvel Gentry that explain exactly where to put the telltales AND how to use them.

You can find them on Beth and Evans blog: Articles
scroll down to where you find "Useful Material from other sources:"

While you are at it, there are a number of other very interesting articles on that site too.

Have fun!
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Old 25-06-2014, 12:07   #9
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
If you don't know where to stick them you need to read up a bit more and ask some questions. Follow the link provided by OldFrog and pay particular attention to the section on boundary layers and bubbles.

I disagree with the article on only needing tells on the main's trailing edge especially for a beginner.

The tells let you see what is happening to the airflow on various parts of the sail. The mainsail can be very complicated to trim and trailing edge tells only tell you what's happening as the airflow departs the sail. If you plan to get good at this the more info you have (to a certain point) the better.

The mainsail could have halyard tension, mainsheet, traveller, outhaul, vang, cunningham and adjustable backstay all influencing its shape. You could be stalled at the bottom and drawing at the top for example.

Having tells on the sail can help you verify your theory why the trailing edge tells are not behaving.

The genny has halyard tension, genny car position (sheeting angle) and some racing gennys will have a cunningham.

You clearly don't want the sails looking like tinseled Christmas trees and it depends on the size of your sail.

First - Keep the trailing edges of any tells away from sail seams - it is annoying when they get stuck - especially in low winds when you are trying to get the sail as efficient as possible.

Genny - Definitely 3 sets vertically. One in the vertical mid-point, one a little less than 1/3 down and one a little more than 1/3 up. Don't forget to stagger them vertically by a couple inches so you can see both sides. For and aft - depending on the roach you may only need two sets - a 150 genny might take 3 sets. The aft most one should be just aft of the "normally" deepest part of the roach.

Mainsail - Vertically the same as the genny. Again depending on the roach length you may need 2 or 3 sets - 2 is probably ok. 1 just at aft of the deepest part of the sail (usually the first third) and the second pair split the difference to the leading edge. The trailing edge flies are key IMO and for them I always prefer yarn over tape.

mainsail tapes can also help figure out genny/main interaction in the slot.

I also prefer yarn over tape everywhere as I fell the yarn is more sensitive and the "flate tape" resists flying up and down a bit more. The tape dries faster after rain and lasts longer.

Whew - TMI, sorry...



Nice link.

I took the NorthSails weekend sail trimming seminar and would recommend it to anyone.

Their website also is great and has live graphics demonstrating each concept.

North Sails: Mainsail Trim

What I really like is they lay out a "sequence" for adjusting the sails so there is some logic behind it.

I sailed with a guy (finally gave up) that would sheet the main on a beat with the mainsheet and leave the traveller locked. He had no idea what the mainsheet did vs. the traveller and was super stubborn. I finally left that race boat and refused/refuse to sail with him to this day.

When you take the course you get 2 CDs. One has a sailing simulator where you can input different conditions and then sail and trim a virtual boat around a course trying to achieve maximum boat speed.

Very cool.
Wow... awesome information!!! thanks!
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Old 25-06-2014, 12:12   #10
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by FecklessDolphin View Post
Given that the OP is a beginner, I do not think she needs tell tales up and down the luff to evaluate lead placement. I would just put one set of telltales (green on starboard, red on port side of sail) 10-14" aft of the luff, low enough on each jib/genoa so she can see them easily from the helm. That way she is more likely to use them regularly (which is how you learn to use them). I would not bother with putting them on the main.

I thought about this.. but then.. I wondered if I should also consider the fact that we are probably going to move past the basics, relatively quickly. And will want to move on to more advance sail trim... But you do make a good point. If they are easily removeable.. perhaps it might be best to take your suggestion, and then re do them in a year or so, when we have moved past a beginner level...
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Old 25-06-2014, 12:19   #11
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Here's a link to an article with pictures. Also, I believe the package the tell-tales came in also has some directions:

Jasper & Bailey Sailmakers

It was Davis Air Flow Tels that had the diagrams:

http://www.davisnet.com/product_docu...Airflo_INS.PDF

The "jasper and bailey" website spells it out really well...
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Old 25-06-2014, 12:20   #12
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Re: Tell-Tale Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifePart2 View Post
There are some excellent articles by Arvel Gentry that explain exactly where to put the telltales AND how to use them.

You can find them on Beth and Evans blog: Articles
scroll down to where you find "Useful Material from other sources:"

While you are at it, there are a number of other very interesting articles on that site too.

Have fun!

Wow.. tons of info on Beth and Evan's blog... I've bookmarked it... !
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