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Old 12-02-2016, 05:51   #76
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

There's no VAT due on boats intended for export by non EU residents. Don't be afraid to look in Europe, you'll probably end up staying like we did.

Our boat is wired 110 for the US, but using it in Europe is not a problem running off the generator and inverter all the time. We do need to import all the appliances, nothing that plugs in except for maybe a phone or computer can be purchased overseas. This can become a PITA, but not a large PITA.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:02   #77
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

@ ribbit

In the 60s some intrepid sailors showed that a 30' could cross the pond (the Vertue series, by A.Coles...!?).

Nowadays, people even row thru the Pacific...

Well, in fact, it shows nothing to me. On the contrary, sailing becoming less extreme and challenging, people have gone on the way to higher sizes.

In the 70s, the likes of the Agnellis, Pirellis... sailed on 50-60 footers only.

Larger measures were for cruising motorsailors, rarely beyond the 25m mark (80') and also due to local limitation for timber, masts, etc. (Scotland had the best reputation ww in the late 1800)

At present, a larger boat can Be better solo-sailed!!! than any smaller one, given a good amount of electronics, hydraulics, smart machinery...($$).

Truth is, beyond the 60' length, any stress, efforts, execution... largely exceed any personal capability...and a large crew, unless coached for regattas, is pretty $ for cruising purposes.

Perini Navi, WallyYachts, Vendredi13... pioniereed that trend (late 1990s) .
Any 20+m LOA boat at present pays a tribute to them, if not to the IMOCA60 or Volvo racers series. Therefore, at present, a boat of 50-58' range is just a medium-large boat, no more! And a maxi is >75'

...

The body doesn't shrink after ribbit's considerations... ask a 6'5"Scandinavian to stand up in your boat, or stretch in your berth...

Also, i like the souplesse of a 6cyl. Diesel, not a noisy unbalanced 3cyl.one... shower cabin separate from head, large kitchen, etc.... the more so as a liveaboard of course.

I need 30cm large steel pans for my cooking, have crystal flutes, silverware onboard... I seriously doubt I could fit them into any 40', or my 4th anchor as well, etc.

More generally, I accept any comments, so far people show knowledge of the evolution of the yacht design practice over the centuries. Someone are just son of their decade (popular yachting occurring from the 80s)

Regards to all
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:28   #78
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's no VAT due on boats intended for export by non EU residents. Don't be afraid to look in Europe, you'll probably end up staying like we did.

Our boat is wired 110 for the US, but using it in Europe is not a problem running off the generator and inverter all the time. We do need to import all the appliances, nothing that plugs in except for maybe a phone or computer can be purchased overseas. This can become a PITA, but not a large PITA.
VAT must be checked for as "already paid up" being given invoice, or private seller's declaration .

A not-so-large PITA is ordinary business on board :-)
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:53   #79
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

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I'll try!!

In that range of size and cost, I reallly think you should emphasize the naval architect and not specific brands. Ron Holland, German Frers, Chuck Paine and Robert Perry ALWAYS design seaworthy, stable, beautiful and welll thought out boats.

I would be inclined to remove Holland from that list. We considered a Swan 43 designed by Holland and was not impressed. The owner had had to rebuild the chain plate attachments at great cost. Also the aft cabin queen berth just did not work. You would hit your head any time you sat up quickly. Our broker, who is very knowledgeable was a big fan of the earlier S&S Swans and the later Frers' designs, but not the Holland ones.
,
I would definitely have a look at the British Discovery 55 before you decide. Several circumnavigations and rave reviews (YouTube) by Ron Holland,

I lusted after the Discovery 55 when I saw it at Annapolis one year. It is stunningly attractive piece of boat porn. My lust was much blunted after spending some time in Indonesia with a Swiss couple who had one. They had had one significant problem after another with the boat and had spent a fortune fixing things.

Last Amel I saw on Youtube went to port with a broken mast. But is probably a good boat with very nice ideas. But - since it's French - it's bound to have idiosyncratic engineering.

Fact remains, as I pointed out earlier, there are more Amels out there doing serious cruising than any other brand in relation to the number built.

The Oysters I would stay away from. hull delamination and several licensed yards building them. You don't know which yard it came from.

Actually you do know which yard it came from, although I agree that it would be better if all the boats were built in one yard where quality control would be easier. There are lots of Oysters sailing in obscure parts of the world - although for some reason they tend to travel in Oyster packs - not enough to be in a rally, they travel in Oyster rallies.

Best
There are a lot of fine boats to choose from, especially if your budget is fairly large. It really is a case of different boats for different folks.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:02   #80
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

Several posts opined that having one yard make all the boats of a design might be better(regarding oysters). Unfortunately, even if a line of boats is made at just one yard, the quality can vary significantly between boats. The Cape Dory sailboats were notorious for hit or miss quality controls. Some were superbly made; others created endless problems for their owners. Same with the Hinckley yachts. Same true of the CT yachts. So the one yard idea is no solution.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:33   #81
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

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Just for the record - I love Amels and I love France.
you'll need to post a picture eating frog legs and snails to prove that now, sorry ,)
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:36   #82
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

I'll take a selfie at the Vendee Globe this year
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:37   #83
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

To address the size issue brought up a bit earlier, It's not just me sailing. It will be my wife and our sons, 3 and 5 currently. I plan to purchase a boat large enough to house us well into my kids teenage years. We would also welcome the occasional visiting friend or friends. We have also considered adoption a time or 2 and would like the leeway to fit a third child on board comfortably should we decide to adopt eventually. So on my estimation, to accommodate my wife and what will eventually be 3 rather large men and 1 unknown individual with enough private space to keep us all sane and stowage to travel long distances, a boat around the 50' mark will be just about as small as we dare go.

Also, my favorite feature of the Amel is the engine room being isolated from the living space. I've been in a situation with a hot Beneteau with a dead diesel with a bad fuel pump. All I remember is the smell of diesel permeating every fiber of my being as we attempted to remedy the problem with a bush fix on a 98 degree day stranded just north of the Keys. Will the isolated engine room prevent the stink of diesel from filling the cabin? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I won't have to disrupt the living space to attempt repairs and maintenance.

I'd be interested to know what other makes have a seperate engine room like the Amels?

Tom
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:45   #84
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

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Originally Posted by Tscott8201 View Post
To address the size issue brought up a bit earlier, It's not just me sailing. It will be my wife and our sons, 3 and 5 currently. I plan to purchase a boat large enough to house us well into my kids teenage years. We would also welcome the occasional visiting friend or friends. We have also considered adoption a time or 2 and would like the leeway to fit a third child on board comfortably should we decide to adopt eventually. So on my estimation, to accommodate my wife and what will eventually be 3 rather large men and 1 unknown individual with enough private space to keep us all sane and stowage to travel long distances, a boat around the 50' mark will be just about as small as we dare go.

Also, my favorite feature of the Amel is the engine room being isolated from the living space. I've been in a situation with a hot Beneteau with a dead diesel with a bad fuel pump. All I remember is the smell of diesel permeating every fiber of my being as we attempted to remedy the problem with a bush fix on a 98 degree day stranded just north of the Keys. Will the isolated engine room prevent the stink of diesel from filling the cabin? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I won't have to disrupt the living space to attempt repairs and maintenance.

I'd be interested to know what other makes have a seperate engine room like the Amels?

Tom
Hey Tom, you're spot on with the size. We (gf and I) cruise on a 43ft that would accommodate one additional family member, but beyond that we'd either shoot for high 40's or switch straight over to a cat. Ours is a ketch rig and means both of us can take a watch and sail handle without necessarily needing to wake the other one up.

As for seperate engine rooms, our engines are housed below the pilothouse in a dedicated 6 x 6 (bulkhead to bulkhead) compartment, with 4.5ft of head room. I can work away down there quite happily without disturbing the folks in the wheelhouse above - MUCH easier than having to dismantle parts of the main salon to get access, then spreading grease and sh*t everywhere. If anything, I wish the space was larger so I could move our diesel heater and watermaker down there.

n
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:49   #85
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

This (247ft) is about the right size for a single hander:-




This was the boat Alain Colas used for a single handed race.

He must have been French
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:01   #86
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

Once you start getting over 50', the center cockpits usually have a large "engine room." If you haven't looked at Outbounds, perhaps that is something you should consider as well. Very function driven design with a lot of systems thoroughly thought out. The 46 is on the smaller side for your needs, but has a dedicated "work room" in the aft lazarette. The 52 model is a center cockpit and has more of an engine room.

Maybe also check out Garcia yachts, they make aluminum boats in France - very very nice.
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:28   #87
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
VAT must be checked for as "already paid up" being given invoice, or private seller's declaration .-)
Simply ..... Not true.

I live in Europe on a non VAT paid boat six months per year. I know the rules. All a non EU resident buyer needs to do is take delivery of his boat (new or used) in a non VAT zone country... Then follow the rules regarding VAT like we do.

Ken
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:39   #88
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

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Is it? Have you ever tried loading a boat less than 40ft with 6-9 months worth of stores, plus clothing, plus other bits and pieces for more than a couple? If you have, you'll know anything under 40ft makes life quite difficult.



Wow, this smacks of jealousy. If it's a reference to Delos (which I really hope it isn't, as that thread's been done to death), they produce good quality videos for the public's viewing pleasure and if you feel like donating, you donate. It's not like they're sitting around on a yacht in the tropics, begging for welfare...

n
On storage:

Maybe I'm just well practiced. Ignoring water (an admitted very real factor, but maybe not that huge a factor as I am also well practiced, though have also experience with ensuring that people get enough water - and salt - fast enough in hot conditions), I ALWAYS tour on my motorbike, with at least 3 months supply of food (yes I have had to use it before, that's why I built up to 3 months supply). If I can get 3 months supply of food, plus clothes, plus tent, plus sleeping bag, plus sleeping mat, plus floor insulation mat, plus tools, plus oil for top ups, plus torches, plus laptop, plus cooking gear, on the back of a motorbike (and tankbag), I can get well over 12 months of food 'for 1' easily onto a 32ft boat (it's one of the reasons I prefer a 32ft over a 28ft, along with the extra water carrying capacity with a 32ft, prior to getting a watermaker). Not including the food contribution I can catch when on board. As home is remote and off grid, I am used to having enough basics and variety in the cupboards by the end of September, to get me through to the end of April (yes I have been snowed in for considerable periods).

As people that have sailed non-stop around the World in small boats have shown, they don't die of starvation or thirst before they get half way. No I don't want to be as constrained as the dimensions of a Folkboat would impose, but even 20 years ago I would have been able to manage it.

Why are you intimating that these boats are away from sources of supplies for 6 to 9 months anyway? I'd bet the vast majority are never away from such sources, for anywhere near such periods of time. Wouldn't that be the extremely rare exception, rather than the rule? How many never get further than 20 minutes from the shops? Heck even I won't carry that much! Though I may grab sufficient supplies of West Indian Hot Pepper Sauce to last me a fair while, when I get the chance (I tend to get 12 bottles at a time when I get close to running out). When I pickle cabbage, I usually do enough for a year (because it's a year before the red cabbage return to the shops). I do enough pickled eggs for a few months, then if my kid sister visits, they are gone in a week.

No it wasn't a reference to Delos. But that hat definitely fits others, and not just in regard to boats (or even just YouTube - too many things are becoming just 'advertising' imho, attempting to extract as much as possible from people's wallets under false pretences). I have pretty much given up on YouTube for quite a while, and especially since Google took it over and started ruining it with their usual incompetence and thinly disguised malevolence.

But then I don't do Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp, Skype, Cloud this, Cloud that, or a pile of other things either.

Sorry but 'flash a boob and hit the donate button' doesn't wash with me either.
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:42   #89
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

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Simply ..... Not true.

I live in Europe on a non VAT paid boat six months per year. I know the rules. All a non EU resident buyer needs to do is take delivery of his boat (new or used) in a non VAT zone country... Then follow the rules regarding VAT like we do.

Ken
Ken,not sure what country you reside in over there, but we got different VAT answers from the French, the Italians, and of course the Germans. No one seemed to be on the same page, even when reading the actual regulations regarding foreign owned, operated and domesticated in their countries. The French, at least in LeHavre made a big issue about seeing the boat's VAT invoice. Even though it was an American made boat. They wanted to charge us right there for bringing it into France. The Italians in Trieste could have cared less about anything relating to VAT nor how long the boat was going to hang around the town. The Bremerhaven folks seemed to follow the law as we understood things. Maybe times have changed. Maybe the Frence have stopped picking on frogs.
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:58   #90
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Re: Talk Me Out of an Amel

But you have to admit, some people are waaaaay over sensitive about having their tails tweaked over boat sizes, and are very prone to 'falling for it' time after time.

It's true isn't it?

"But, but, we have a whole NEIGBOURHOOD to accommodate! How could we manage without our own Pizzeria on the sugarscoop, and the vineyard on top of the Bimini, and the parlour maid milking the cow twice a day in the rear port side dairy?"



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