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Old 30-10-2010, 10:35   #61
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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
I think that is the same case, is it not?
If you read the posts, on the link, you will see there are several other Hallberg Rassy’s listed as having delamination. As well as the original HR38 a HR34 and HR 42’s are mentioned as having problems.
HR is a relatively small volume producer, the yachts concerned are reasonably new. Delamination would not be detected by many owners and even found the first step would not be to report this in forums such as these. So this number of yachts is of concern.
Despite the court ruling (which seems more on procedural matters than on the condition of the yacht in question) I think there is a serious problem with at least some of these yachts. IMHO a prestige manufacturer should have taken care of its customers and fixed this problem.
Mistakes do happen. How a company fixes those mistakes is important for its reputation.. The sale of prestige yachts is dependant on this reputation
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Old 30-10-2010, 10:43   #62
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Hmmm.... I guess the onus is on the accuser to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The accused does NOT have prove his innocence.

Still, to be safe, I'll strike HR from my boat list.
In a civil case, the standard of proof is not a reasonable doubt. It's a "preponderance of the evidence".
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Old 30-10-2010, 10:46   #63
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Interesting isn't it that high quality HR tends to use cored hulls below the waterline and beneteau in general doesn't !!!

Dave
Cored hulls below the waterline are more expensive than solid, so tend to be encountered in more expensive boats.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:53   #64
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I just returned from a show where I spoke with Hallberg-Rassy management who attended, and inspected the two boats they had on display and think that Hallberg-Rassy should do more in getting the facts and details of the case disseminated; so far only the plaintiff has gone to great lengths to distribute their side. One aspect was that the owners, who have bought the boat used, refused to let anyone from the factory inspect the boat - had they done that I am sure that HR would have reacted differently.

Nonetheless the build quality and attention to detail that I saw was quite impressive.

It really would be good to hear both sides of the story; particularly as the court winner's side is the one less known.
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:33   #65
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Interesting isn't it that high quality HR tends to use cored hulls below the waterline and beneteau in general doesn't !!!

Dave
Yes, Beneteau's are solid glass below the W/L but they also use a dropped in hull liner glued with pre-applied blobs of plexus glue, and at the top and bottom of bulkheads they also use plexus glue, instead of actually tabbing bulkheads with fiberglass and using a heavy floor grid glassed to the hull. Their rudder posts are laminated fiberglass as well. That's why they're called "bendy toys".
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:32   #66
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Yes, Beneteau's are solid glass below the W/L but they also use a dropped in hull liner glued with pre-applied blobs of plexus glue, and at the top and bottom of bulkheads they also use plexus glue, instead of actually tabbing bulkheads with fiberglass and using a heavy floor grid glassed to the hull. Their rudder posts are laminated fiberglass as well. That's why they're called "bendy toys".
The Beneteau Figaro II hull is cored below the waterline, and I think that some of the new First series are cored below the waterline, too.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:25   #67
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Can KillerBoo or one of the other Swedish members tell us something about the outcome of the lawsuit. Someone mentioned October 29.

I cannot understand how HR lets so much reputation damaging information surface on the internet. In every business sometimes mistakes are made. Well then put them right !
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:30   #68
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Can KillerBoo or one of the other Swedish members tell us something about the outcome of the lawsuit. Someone mentioned October 29.

I cannot understand how HR lets so much reputation damaging information surface on the internet. In every business sometimes mistakes are made. Well then put them right !
The lawsuit found in favour of HR. There is some discussion of it on this thread if you go back a few pages.

Link to verdict and discussion
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:06   #69
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Their rudder posts are laminated fiberglass as well
funny all mine were stainless steel, perhaps your mixing them up with Hunter ( whihc I wouldnt take sail further then a bathtub).

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Old 07-11-2010, 15:06   #70
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Nope - new ones are fiberglass. How old was yours?
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Old 07-11-2010, 15:14   #71
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No way your mixing up rudder post and the tube that is the stuffing box for the shaft. the rudder shaft is S.S and the tube it rides within is glass. never seen the shaft done in glass.
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Old 07-11-2010, 15:20   #72
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i have an older boat with fiberglass rudder tube.... is a formosa. ct, hardin, also had same -- built in 1970s.i am not certain as to what other makes also did that.
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Old 07-11-2010, 18:14   #73
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Nope - new ones are fiberglass. How old was yours?
New models Oceanis 31, 34,37,40 all have stainless steel rudder stocks as does the new sense 50, most of the First series have a composite stock.

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Old 09-11-2010, 11:51   #74
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Chartered a 2004 Bene 423 two years ago. When you take the cover off of the top of the rudder post in the cockpit, you are looking at the top cross section of the post and you can see the alternating layers of glass used to build it up before it is milled.
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:07   #75
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Here is a review of Bene construction of the 411 model from BOATS.COM. It describes several aspects of their construction:

"The rudder of the 411 is all composite, even the rudder-post. The blade of the rudder is formed of foam sandwiched between fiberglass layers. The post is a glass-epoxy composite that is both lighter than stainless steel and stronger. Epoxy rudder shafts have several benefits. First, the blade and the shaft are one inert piece, so water will not migrate into the foam sandwich where the shaft and blade join. Take a moisture meter to any boatyard and measure the water in the rudder on the hauled boats. You will see that virtually all of those with steel shafts joined to foam sandwich blades have high moisture readings.

The second benefit is the flex inherent in the epoxy shaft. The rudder is the most vulnerable point on the boat in heavy weather or when grounding. When the boat falls off a wave sideways and come up short at the bottom of the trough, there is a huge side strain on the shaft. In rare instances, a steel or aluminum shaft can bend or even break under such loads. An epoxy shaft could brake as well, and every year leading-edge racing boats lose shafts that have been engineered outside the envelop.
But the 411 is not a racing boat and has been engineered well within the envelop. The shafts Beneteau uses have tested out in Beneteau’s own tests as being three times as strong as stainless steel, largely because the shaft will flex and deflect the side force. This is not experimental technology anymore; instead, it is rapidly becoming the best way to engineer a rudder.
The guts of the boat rest on an interior grid pan that is joined to the inside of the hull with polyester paste and fiberglass tabbing. Integral to the grid are two levels of fore-and-aft stringers, the chainplates, engine mounts, tank cavities and bulkhead slots. The downside of such interior pans used by many big production builders lies in the inability of a skipper to get to and repair a breach in the hull that lies behind the interior liner.
That noted, however, the grid system adds strength to the hull without adding excessive weight and simplifies the building process, thereby keeping costs down. Prefabricated interior modules fit neatly into the interior grid, where they are tabbed into place. The whole boat, once the deck is on, becomes a virtual monocoque.
The 411′s deck is a fiberglass, end-grain balsa sandwich. The hull and deck are joined on the flange molded into the hull, glued with polyurethane mastic, and fixed in place with stainless-steel screws. It used to be the rule that flange joints should be thru-bolted on 6- or 8-inch centers. Nowadays, the adhesives used in hull-deck joints are so strong and reliable that screws have taken the place of bolts. Beneteau makes a point of noting that none of their boats has ever suffered a hull-deck-joint failure"
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