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Old 28-10-2010, 02:25   #16
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Originally Posted by Sail IC View Post
HR is not publically communicating as they know they could not win in the eyes of the consumers.
I disagree - they could easily win in the eyes of the public.

HR could have asked for the boat back, done a full inspection and repaired the boat at no charge. If there was severe delamination they could have replaced the boat without further quibbling.

It would cost them a great deal of money, but how much is your reputation worth? I would be amazed if they weren't insured for this sort of thing.
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Old 28-10-2010, 04:08   #17
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I once went on a HR 43 at a boat show, had a very good look around in all areas and was surprised at some of the finish. Could have been better for the prize you pay but a very nice boat.
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Old 28-10-2010, 04:36   #18
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Originally Posted by mintyspilot View Post
I disagree - they could easily win in the eyes of the public.

HR could have asked for the boat back, done a full inspection and repaired the boat at no charge. If there was severe delamination they could have replaced the boat without further quibbling.

It would cost them a great deal of money, but how much is your reputation worth? I would be amazed if they weren't insured for this sort of thing.
I agree. That is what HR probably should have done in the first place.

My point was that once HR decided not to agree to the buyers requests and the case was on its way to court, then its correct by them not to entertain a public communication in the matter.

At the the moment, its difficult to follow what is/has happened.

Is this one of these customers expecting a level of perfection that cannot be reached. He claims he spent $180K in Survey/Legal/Witness fees and costs of warranty repairs he carried out himself (not incl the delam hull fault).

Or is it HR, on its second generation family management doing some real bad decisions like severe cost/quality cutting in a premium brand. HR has just layed off a sizable part of their employees, perhaps not uncommon in the boating industry right now.

As a Swede an human, I'm not sure what of above I hope for, but a guess thats why we do have courts.
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Old 28-10-2010, 04:48   #19
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Can it be the fish? ...

;-)))

Seriously though - I think HR made a big mistake allowing for any suit. Right or wrong, fix the boat, remove the errors from the technology, and move on.

Somehow, in a country of smart people that the Swedes are, someone at HR turned out to be a halfwit.

Coincidently, if the new HR looks as it does (HR 64 - Bavaria on drugs;-) and the if quality issues are discussed, who will want to buy a HR in the future?

b.
Well, we don't have enough information to call HR "halfwit".

Most companies will go pretty far to keep a customer complaint from turning into a lawsuit. I've never seen a company so stupid as to get themselves into litigation when some reasonable non-legal means would have prevented it. A lawsuit is a big problem for a company with great diversion of resources, financial reserves for potential losses, not even to mention the negative PR.

Because of that, there exists a certain type of person who seeks to exploit this reluctance of companies to get into lawsuits, by exaggerating some problem they had and then demanding a huge settlement, entirely disproportionate to the real substance of the actual problem, under threat of taking legal action. All cynically exploiting companies' reluctance to be sued by their customers and hoping to get paid in order to go away.

There is a point at which many companies will put their foot down, call the bluff, and say, go ahead and sue us, at least then we will get a chance to prove our position in court.

That is much more likely scenario in this case. But again, we don't have enough information. I can say one thing -- I have not heard about other cases of poor structure in HR's. That by itself makes me somewhat skeptical.

I'm a former lawyer who has seen a number of these situations from the inside.
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Old 28-10-2010, 05:13   #20
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Well, we don't have enough information to call HR "halfwit".

Most companies will go pretty far to keep a customer complaint from turning into a lawsuit. I've never seen a company so stupid as to get themselves into litigation when some reasonable non-legal means would have prevented it.
Absolutely. As a businessman myself I completely agree with this. I have had to take other people and businesses to court (usually for non-payment of invoices) and the amount of time and paper that gets consumed is unbelievable and these are simple, clear cut cases.

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Because of that, there exists a certain type of person who seeks to exploit this reluctance of companies to get into lawsuits, by exaggerating some problem they had and then demanding a huge settlement, entirely disproportionate to the real substance of the actual problem, under threat of taking legal action.
It has only happened to us twice in 10 years of trading. In both instances we simply gave them their money back and said goodbye to them.

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I'm a former lawyer who has seen a number of these situations from the inside.
Well, we are all on the outside of this case, but it will be very interesting to see the outcome.
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Old 28-10-2010, 10:22   #21
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My opinion on this whole matter is that HR, having a reputation for building good quality boats have put themselves in a lose-lose situation. No matter what the verdict tomorrow says, they will have lost a lot of credibility in the eyes of the public. ince weīve only seen one side of the story told, itīs very easy to fall far that and ignore the possibility taht HR might actually be right in some things. Still, to a potential buyer, this wouldnt mean diddly as he discovers HRīs unwillingness to work things out, out of court.

Swedish boatmagīs have said nothing. Well, some believe itīs because they want to wait for facts before taking sides..
HaaHaaa.. IF HR loses, the magīs will praise them anyway.. so they wont lose a bunch of ad money.
No winners in this case no matter how it turns out. Unfortunately. Tomorrow weīll see who loses the most.
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Old 28-10-2010, 11:11   #22
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Tomorrow weīll see who loses the most.
If a link becomes available re the judgment then please do post it up. I'll be interested in the outcome.
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Old 28-10-2010, 12:17   #23
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I read hand laid as don't have 21st century production techniques.

I suspect HR have realised they need Beneteau / Bavaria etc style modern production capabilities both for competitive and consistent quality reasons........but haven't fully arrived there yet.

Be interesting to hear the outcome...........
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Old 28-10-2010, 12:30   #24
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Swedish boatmagīs have said nothing. Well, some believe itīs because they want to wait for facts before taking sides..
HaaHaaa.. IF HR loses, the magīs will praise them anyway.. so they wont lose a bunch of ad money.
The writers don't want ruin their chances for a free HR sailing holiday the chance to do an objective extended HR yacht review.
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Old 28-10-2010, 12:42   #25
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If a link becomes available re the judgment then please do post it up. I'll be interested in the outcome.
Yes, Iīll post it as I find it
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Old 28-10-2010, 12:59   #26
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I read hand laid as don't have 21st century production techniques.
.Don't think I can agree with you on that DOJ.
Don't confuse 21st century with quality. I have seen pumps drop vacumn partway thru the bagging process, non-colored MEKP fail to flow in chopper guns, and cored bulkheads "washboard" under compression.
On the other hand, Bluestocking was built by Cheoy Lee in 1965 in hand lay up 2 oz mat and 24 oz roving. 14 layers at the gunwale, 28 in the keel area.
When I gutted her out in 1995 to rebuild the interior, I ground off the paint to clean glass, and could read the chinese characters written in marker pen from the lay-up process.
I have been around this boat her whole life , and know that she has never had a blister.
I am also a fan of HR, and think that our lawyer friend above is right on target.
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Old 29-10-2010, 04:36   #27
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OK, w/o having seen the verdict (due to tech.issues itīs not digitally availabale yet) I can only give you the short answer.

The boat owners lost.

Will be interesting to read the verdict and its explanations once itīs possible but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth either way since there are only losers in the case.
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Old 29-10-2010, 04:55   #28
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OK, w/o having seen the verdict (due to tech.issues itīs not digitally availabale yet) I can only give you the short answer.

The boat owners lost.
Well, now we know....

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Will be interesting to read the verdict and its explanations once itīs possible but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth either way since there are only losers in the case.
I don't see why - we need to see the verdict before coming down on one side or the other. If it is felt to be a bad judgment then I'm sure there will be an appeal. If it was a bad case (i.e. owner trying it on) then HR deserved to win and it would certainly explain their "sue and be damned" position.
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Old 29-10-2010, 05:08   #29
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Well, now we know....


I don't see why - we need to see the verdict before coming down on one side or the other. If it is felt to be a bad judgment then I'm sure there will be an appeal. If it was a bad case (i.e. owner trying it on) then HR deserved to win and it would certainly explain their "sue and be damned" position.
Yes, thatīs why I said it will be interesting to see the verdict.....
I really canīt see HR as "winners" in this case. Sure, they won the court case but did they gain anything from it? As far as the Lindé-couple who bought it are concerned they have essentially lost everything. Not only do they have a ~3 Mill SEK boat thatīs been deemed non-seaworthy by numerous experts and surveyors as well as insurance companies, they also will have to pay HRsīcourt costs of about 800K SEK as well as a big part of their own.

Due to swedish legislation (of which I know no more than the avg guy about) itīs not even sure this case CAN be appealed. However, thatīs only been vaguely described to me so I may be way off in that case
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Old 29-10-2010, 05:19   #30
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I read hand laid as don't have 21st century production techniques.

I suspect HR have realised they need Beneteau / Bavaria etc style modern production capabilities both for competitive and consistent quality reasons........but haven't fully arrived there yet.
With all due respect you clearly have not been to Ellös. The HR factory has outstanding production capabilities. Go visit.
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