Surveyor recommendation and price - Netherlands

[Manana5]

Hi all! My partner and I are looking for our first boat and even though we have been researching for months, we are still completely inexperienced at doing this.
We are looking at a 33ft monohull located the Netherlands - we like it a lot and are in contact with the owner, who seems honest and has given us a lot of info. We would still like to arrange a survey, mainly to check the condition of the hull, deck and saildrive, as the boat is quite old (1976). We contacted one recommended surveyor, who gave us a standard offer for 1200 euro for a full survey, not including travel costs and 100 euro more to translate the report in English. His offer did sound extremely detailed and professional, however it seems overkill to pay this amount to survey a boat with a selling price of 9000 euro. I wonder, shouldn't there be some differentiation in price depending on how big or expensive is the boat? Is the offered price in the normal range? Can we ask for a more limited survey (i.e. not to check every single system on the boat but only a few key things)? Any recommendations for other surveyors in the area, or other advice? Thanks!

[PAlter]

Manana 5 -

Surveyors typically charge by the length of the boat at a cost per foot and then factor in the level of detail and age of the boat. I recently had a survey of my own 38' sailboat boat (50 year old boat built in Holland) and I had discussed various cost options with the surveyor. My interest was to obtain an impartial evaluation of the overall condition of the boat as part of my own due diligence and preparation for selling so I did not need super detailed survey. My boat was out of the water and his charge was $ 12.00 USD per foot so $ 456.00 USD. This was for a boat in Bristol Rhode Island and the surveyor was based nearby so no travel expense. You might find it interesting to note that his quote for a complete survey had a range of $ 22 USD to about $ 26 USD per foot and it would have been very comprehensive - so for a complete detailed survey of a 38' boat cost would have been in the range between $ 836 USD - $ 988 USD. My advice when buying any boat is to have a survey - especially if you are distant from the boat and cannot perform your own detailed crawl-through, in water and on-land evaluation and especially if you do not have extensive boating or boat maintenance experience.

Good luck in your boat search - are you located in the Netherlands?

What boat are you considering? There were some great LeComte boats built in Holland (1960;s and 1970's) in the 30' - 38' range (the Medalist and the NE 38') by Adolf LeComte to very high quality standards. These boats are great looking, have excellent sailing characteristics and are available for reasonable prices in US and Europe.

Are you based in US or Europe? My 1968 LeComte NE 38 "Sequitur" is for sale 39.5k USD - she is in Bristol Rhode Island USA. I have attached a few photos. I have had my boat for 20 years and taken good care of her. I am selling to move onto a larger boat in the 44 - 46 foot range. if you have interest, email me with your email address and I can send you a 10 page brochure with more photos.

Good luck in your search.

[Manana5]

PAlter,
Thank you for the reply! Yes the survey prices you mention are closer to what I was imagining. The offer we received, if I divide by the length of the boat comes down to 36 euro ($41) per foot! Maybe prices in Europe are higher than the US..?
We are located in Europe but not in Holland, so we would rely on the survey completely for the condition of the boat. We figured it is not worth flying over there to do our own check, given our lack of knowledge and experience.
The boat is this one: https://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbroker...-ORION-33.html
(it says SOLD as this is an old ad, but we are looking at the same boat)

[De.windhoos]

Join Zeilersforum (https://zeilersforum.nl) it's a Dutch sailors site. they'll be able to point you to an affordable and good surveyor.

Good luck

[klaaskootsra]

The offer sounds a bit on the high side.
I would expect a bit less than 1000 euro incl. VAT and moisture measurements.
English report should be provided at no additional charges in my opinion.
To reduce costs you could limit survey to e.g hull and engine an assume you have to replace rigging and sails anyway.

Unfortunately you cannot relate the surveying costs to the value of the boat. As a boat of a certain size will take a certain amount of time, old or young (old one, might even take more time...)

In no particular order some I would approach:
Beekman expertise
Koos Blonk

[Manana5]

The surveyor just informed me he does not do partial surveys... uhm, ok. I guess we move on to the next options. Keep the suggestions coming!

[rav555]

Originally Posted by Manana5

The surveyor just informed me he does not do partial surveys... uhm, ok. I guess we move on to the next options. Keep the suggestions coming!

The price you are paying for the yacht suggests that a refit may be necessary. So with that in mind please allow me to make the following recommendations.

Sea trial the boat before you buy. If the owner refuses then walk away. Check the electronics yourself. Maybe hire a delivery skipper to assist you in the sea-trial as he will inspect the yacht prior to getting underway just for his own comfort and due diligence. Ask the skippers opinion of the yacht. A delivery skipper or Yachtmaster instructor from a local RYA sailing school will cost you about 250-300 Euros per day. So you have the day with a professional to get his opinion.

Also you must realize that the insurance company will require a survey. And most marina's in the EU will require insurance along with documents regarding your competency; ie ICC, Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper or Yachtmaster credentials or the Netherlands equivalent. They want to see that other yachts are protected from damage caused by your boat. At some point a yacht survey becomes a necessary expense.

If spending 1000 Euro makes you blanch now maybe that is a good thing to know; you will spend far more in the coming months and years on your yacht!

You might want to ask the insurance company to recommend several surveyors they do business with.

Ask questions of the seller and get the answers in writing. These are disclosures. Inquire about the age of the standing rig, running rig, sails, etc. The biggest problem with old stainless fittings is crevice corrosion. Read about that and understand the causes.

Learn to rely upon your own judgement. Afterall buying a yacht is the beginning of new chapter in your sailing career and your judgment is essential to keep you and your crew safe!!

The areas of concern on all GRP yachts is moisture in the hull causing blisters and moisture in plywood or balsa encapsulated hulls decks causing rot. So understand how your yacht is laid up. Foam encapsulated decks or hulls of course do not suffer from rot but they still can delaminate making the structure soft. Closely inspect the gelcoat for crazing. This is from the degassing of volatile compounds in the gelcoat largely due to age. It looks like a fine network of cracks and the gelcoat sometimes presents a "chalky" appearance. This will allow moisture to enter the GRP layup.

Bounce on the decks lightly to see if the deck deflects. If it does then that could be an indication of a problem. And inspect winch foundations. Look for corrosion in the fasteners.

Go down below and check the condition of the woodwork. If everything is clean and bright then the owners previously took pride and probably cared well for the boat. If you see drill holes, beaucoup scratches and wear and sketchy repairs and DIY additions then have some concern. Expect to spend money on new saloon cushions and mattresses; you have no idea what is living in them or what fluids have been spilled on them. (Check with a black light in the dark! Bodily fluid flouresce!) Check the saloon or cabin sole. If it is common plywood then ask why? Check battery tie downs and make sure they will not spill in a rough sea. Don't drink the water!! Clean and sanitize the water tank first! Pressure test it if possible to see that it and the fue l tank does not leak.

Check the appearance of the engine. If it is clean and has no oil in the bilges or sump then maybe the owner took care and regularly checked and maintained the diesel. If the engine compartment has no insulation or looks like a greasy mess then that might mean trouble.

Diesels well maintained can almost run "forever". If they are run daily regularly and well maintained then a high hour engine is not necessarily a risk. Look for blue smoke. Black smoke at start up is a rich mixture and expected while blue smoke is oil getting by the compression rings. This easily shows up at night under a soft flashlight. Back in the day power plant operators would call a slightly rich mixture an "economic haze" as that is the point that a plant runs at greatest efficiency. An economic haze though today is not politically correct.

Before you start the diesel do a thorough engine check. Put some dish soap in the seawater inlet filter and look for bubbles at the exhaust outlet make the exhaust riser is doing it's job.

And as I said before; sea trial the boat so you can see how the engine and running rig works under load as well as the electronics. Make sure the running rig runs free from friction, what ever reefing system works! So reef the sails! If the rig is done prior to sea trial insect the mast head sheaves and "Windex" indicator. Electronics over 5 years old should be replaced. But that is my opinion and may not be shared by others. Make sure navigation lights work and the wiring was not installed by "Captain Midnight". If it's a hacked up rats nest walk away.

And while on sea trial USE THE HEAD!!! make sure it works properly without any fussing or tweaking!!! Light up the stove! Maybe invest in a bottle of gas and check for leaks.

You should also investigate the history of the yacht you are buying, not just the individual yacht specifically but the designer, builder and your intended's sister-ships as well.

And lastly you should have a budget for a refit. Sometimes you get what you pay for.