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Old 24-03-2018, 11:04   #16
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Pacific Seacraft
Island Packet
Morris Yachts still in business?
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Old 24-03-2018, 11:28   #17
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Followed your link and it led me to the 26ftr not the Pilot Cutter.. but.. you want quality you pay.. you want cheap buy a Bavaria.
eek sorry:
Listing 1
Listing 2

And of course difficult for the buyer to differentiate one 'quality' builder from another.

To quote: "Bavaria Yachts is proud to build yachts of the highest quality for the whole world in the most modern shipyard for sailing and motor boats in Germany."

Where as Cornish Crabbers state: "Our aim is to provide a top quality service together with the highest quality product. We cater to your specific requirements and maintain our quality customer service long after your boat has left the factory."
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Old 24-03-2018, 12:09   #18
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Check out the brand new Island Packet 349.
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Old 24-03-2018, 12:19   #19
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

My view is that there is almost no such thing as a production cruising boat. There are boats that have a basic design that is good for cruising, ie protected rudders, good load capacity, manageable sail plan with some redundancy, room to carry adequate ground tackle, big enough fuel and water tanks. More difficult is finding the right number of berths. Cruising boats need storage space not berths and this is difficult to change.
What is almost impossible to get is an electrical system that is right for cruising or rigs set up for ocean sailing. With smaller production runs you may be able to specify heavier weight rigging and better electrics but generally you will need to upgrade these. You should look at upping standing rigging by one size compared to coastal spec (don't forget tangs, gooseneck etc). Heavy duty triple stitched sails with heavy wt fittings. Also upgrade running rigging including all the blocks by at least one, pref 2 sizes, same for ground tackle. So if you have a 35ft boat you should be looking at gear for a 40-45 footer. Boat builders never do this because it adds 25-50% to costs and most people don't need it.
Whatever boat you look at allow 50% of the costs for re-fit/upgrades. Also allow a min of 6 months for working up the boat and getting to know it, pref 1 year
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Old 24-03-2018, 13:30   #20
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Gozzard Yachts (Ontario Canada) is still very much in production. They have been around for, I dunno, maybe 30 years. But Ted Gozzard designed other boats, like the Bayfields, before starting his own shop.

The Gozzard boats have a traditional look, built for blue water. But they have modern layouts and the latest in equipment. They are widely regarded as excellent yachts.

You can purchase them new, and there is a good selection of used. Being a high quality, newer yacht, they usually command premium prices. In this case though, I think you get what you pay for.

Current Production – Gozzard Yachts

Pre-Owned Sales – Gozzard Yachts

Their smallest model is the 31.

And with the currently low Canadian dollar, you may find the price better than expected.
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Old 24-03-2018, 16:25   #21
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
For that, Cape George Cutters will probably build you a Bristol Channel Cutter or a Cape George 34. Either will take you around the world. And I think Bristol Channel Cutters still come with Lyle C. Hess's guarantee to bring you back alive.

capegeorgecutters.com
You know, I was looking quite intently at the BCC for a long time, and then kind of forgot about them. But this might actually be my ideal choice so far. And my god they're pretty boats. I don't know if I could get a brand new one, all in, for my budget, but that brings me to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmc View Post
Boaties proposal of the Pilot Cutter 30 (a lovely boat for sure) actually demonstrates a significant problem for boat builders of traditional designs.

Effectively the basic boat build is listed at £163,000 inc VAT. So the Pilot Cutter 30 seems very expensive to me.
And that excludes optional extras like:
Bow thruster £4,750 (which I would never want)
Diesel heater £2,975
Autopilot £2,685
Feathering prop £1,350

That £163,000 is equivalent to NZ$320,000, enough to buy a very reasonable home in many parts of NZ. Iím not suggesting theyíre not worth the money, just stating a reality.

But that aside. Just a quick look at used boats and I see:

3 boats available on The Yacht Market:
Priced at £55,000, £60,000 and £89,500 respectively.

On Apollo Duck:
Prices for the same vessel also offer 3 examples at £55,000, £57,500, and £79,000.

So the tragic problem for the boat builder is that the moment the boat is sailed out of their yard itís basically worth no more than half what it cost to build. That's not a business model that will work for very long at all.
This is a really good point. I love the idea of having something built for me, to my spec, with everything brand new and ready to go. But do I love it to the tune of 100-150 thousand dollars? Probably not... I wonder if I can justify a new build at all when comparatively the value for used seems so much better.

Why would you never want a bow thruster? Just because you'd never need it, or is there another big downside apart from cost/complexity that I don't know about? I don't think I'd get it either on that boat, but I'm wondering if they have some huge drawback I've never heard of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorman7225 View Post
Check out the brand new Island Packet 349.
Ahh! Very nice. I like how big the cabin is / how small the cockpit is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
My view is that there is almost no such thing as a production cruising boat. There are boats that have a basic design that is good for cruising, ie protected rudders, good load capacity, manageable sail plan with some redundancy, room to carry adequate ground tackle, big enough fuel and water tanks. More difficult is finding the right number of berths. Cruising boats need storage space not berths and this is difficult to change.
What is almost impossible to get is an electrical system that is right for cruising or rigs set up for ocean sailing. With smaller production runs you may be able to specify heavier weight rigging and better electrics but generally you will need to upgrade these. You should look at upping standing rigging by one size compared to coastal spec (don't forget tangs, gooseneck etc). Heavy duty triple stitched sails with heavy wt fittings. Also upgrade running rigging including all the blocks by at least one, pref 2 sizes, same for ground tackle. So if you have a 35ft boat you should be looking at gear for a 40-45 footer. Boat builders never do this because it adds 25-50% to costs and most people don't need it.
Whatever boat you look at allow 50% of the costs for re-fit/upgrades. Also allow a min of 6 months for working up the boat and getting to know it, pref 1 year
This is interesting, could you give me a little more detail? What constitutes coastal / offshore spec in absolute terms?
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Old 24-03-2018, 16:35   #22
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
My view is that there is almost no such thing as a production cruising boat. There are boats that have a basic design that is good for cruising, ie protected rudders, good load capacity, manageable sail plan with some redundancy, room to carry adequate ground tackle, big enough fuel and water tanks. More difficult is finding the right number of berths. Cruising boats need storage space not berths and this is difficult to change.
What is almost impossible to get is an electrical system that is right for cruising or rigs set up for ocean sailing. With smaller production runs you may be able to specify heavier weight rigging and better electrics but generally you will need to upgrade these. You should look at upping standing rigging by one size compared to coastal spec (don't forget tangs, gooseneck etc). Heavy duty triple stitched sails with heavy wt fittings. Also upgrade running rigging including all the blocks by at least one, pref 2 sizes, same for ground tackle. So if you have a 35ft boat you should be looking at gear for a 40-45 footer. Boat builders never do this because it adds 25-50% to costs and most people don't need it.
Whatever boat you look at allow 50% of the costs for re-fit/upgrades. Also allow a min of 6 months for working up the boat and getting to know it, pref 1 year
And that my friends is the absolute truth that few brokers will tell you. Because they know that would most likely be a "deal Killer". Thanks for posting that up.

You are money ahead to buy a good used...well founded...boat then to buy new...Unless you like that new leather smell of a new car....don't do it...unless, of course, money is falling off your life tree into the baskets.
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Old 24-03-2018, 17:00   #23
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Loved that Cornish gaff rigged 30 footer. Salty and looks well built.

Check out the Pacific Seacraft 31,34, and 37. they are very good seaboats and many people have circumnavigated on them. We even have a couple who has taken a 28 footer from west coast of USA all over the Pacific basin.

If you buy new, instead of used, here are the things you will need to add to your original cost.

1. Windvane and autohelm features
2. Upgraded navigation like radar, AIS, long range radio, etc
3. Upgraded anchoring systems...think minimum of three expensive anchors
plus chain and rode. Many long range skippers have more than three.
4. I am a believer in water makers...they ain't cheap.
5. Upgrades for electrics like solar, generators, Victron controllers...etc
6. Upgrades to the engine compartment like larger alternator. Perhaps
multiple filtering stations for fuel and oil. Day tank...polishers...etc
7. How about your dingy and retrieval systems? How about your ditch
gear when it all goes sideways ? Just the inspection on a survival raft
every 5 years or so can cost you one of your gonads. That doesn't
cost to buy the raft...
8 The rigging on new buy versus what is working in the real ocean
environment is unreal. Make sure you have your plastic bag to puke in
when you see the prices of those upgrades. Someone earlier mentioned
the heavier components...size upgrades...chainplates. Ocean sails will
cost you your other gonad.

This is just a quick list. For example...upgraded anchor windless to handle all chain rode with larger diameter chain. Will you have at least one power winch? What will you do to stay out of the weather when sailing? Hard or soft bimini?

That is why your 30-35 footer new could cost you almost twice as much as the initial sales price. Find a good well built boat where some other sailor has poured his life savings into. Don't you be the one. There are many boats that are in very good shape with all the above mentioned items available already paid for and installed. Oh yea, don't forget there is one price for buying items...and there is another price to be paid when you have the pros install that item.
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Old 24-03-2018, 17:05   #24
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

"Traditional" would not IMO be a plastic interior. Would have lots of varnished wood or oiled teak.
Interestingly, he can give a 5 minutes tour with only moving once or twice.
Where do they store the second suit of sails?
BTW, I have have actually learned that this boat has even less storage room than my AT34
Looks like everyone gets to bring one set of clean clothes and a wash bucket.
Hmm, a stand up shower in a "wet head" and the toilet paper is left exposed.
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Old 25-03-2018, 06:07   #25
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Marieholm 33 !!!
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Old 25-03-2018, 06:35   #26
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pirate Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
My view is that there is almost no such thing as a production cruising boat. There are boats that have a basic design that is good for cruising, ie protected rudders, good load capacity, manageable sail plan with some redundancy, room to carry adequate ground tackle, big enough fuel and water tanks. More difficult is finding the right number of berths. Cruising boats need storage space not berths and this is difficult to change.
What is almost impossible to get is an electrical system that is right for cruising or rigs set up for ocean sailing. With smaller production runs you may be able to specify heavier weight rigging and better electrics but generally you will need to upgrade these. You should look at upping standing rigging by one size compared to coastal spec (don't forget tangs, gooseneck etc). Heavy duty triple stitched sails with heavy wt fittings. Also upgrade running rigging including all the blocks by at least one, pref 2 sizes, same for ground tackle. So if you have a 35ft boat you should be looking at gear for a 40-45 footer. Boat builders never do this because it adds 25-50% to costs and most people don't need it.
Whatever boat you look at allow 50% of the costs for re-fit/upgrades. Also allow a min of 6 months for working up the boat and getting to know it, pref 1 year
Posts like this always raise a smile in me..
Now I am not knocking the posters need for feeling secure.. thats who and what he is through his own experiences.
However from my own experiences its well over the top..
Okay.. maybe if your going to do a circumnavigation non stop with most of your time in the Roaring Forties yes.. however 98% of RTW's are done in the Trades in appropriate seasons..
Something like the Pilot Cutter is rigged to cope with weather in the Irish Sea and Southern Approaches 50+ degrees N.. so will be more than adequate for Trade routes.. as for the bow thruster.. thats more to do with the quality of seaman today than any fault of the boat.. else that design would not have lasted 100+ years or so.
Crap boats are short lived.
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Old 25-03-2018, 06:47   #27
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

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If I had a sack full of money just laying around. Love the 30 footers shallow draft and center board.
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Old 26-03-2018, 14:55   #28
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

Why buy new? Well established older boats have records of longevity by many ocean crosses.I have a Rival 34 a boat well known for its sea keeping and built like a tank.With your budget you could have a 34,36,38,41.Add some new gear water maker etc etc.You will have a good boat with a proven record and more money in your cruising budget.
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Old 26-03-2018, 15:57   #29
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

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Posts like this always raise a smile in me..
Now I am not knocking the posters need for feeling secure.. thats who and what he is through his own experiences.
However from my own experiences its well over the top..
Okay.. maybe if your going to do a circumnavigation non stop with most of your time in the Roaring Forties yes.. however 98% of RTW's are done in the Trades in appropriate seasons..
Something like the Pilot Cutter is rigged to cope with weather in the Irish Sea and Southern Approaches 50+ degrees N.. so will be more than adequate for Trade routes.. as for the bow thruster.. thats more to do with the quality of seaman today than any fault of the boat.. else that design would not have lasted 100+ years or so.
Crap boats are short lived.
Agree.
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Old 26-03-2018, 16:00   #30
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Re: Still-in-production blue water smallish boats?

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Why buy new? Well established older boats have records of longevity by many ocean crosses.I have a Rival 34 a boat well known for its sea keeping and built like a tank.With your budget you could have a 34,36,38,41.Add some new gear water maker etc etc.You will have a good boat with a proven record and more money in your cruising budget.
If nobody buys new boats there will be no used boats for the rest of us!
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