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Old 27-10-2014, 11:04   #31
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Thanks. I'll play around with it some.

The sails are practically new, but the boat doesn't have a proper traveller. See picture. The goose neck isn't fixed though so I can downhaul it hard and I can also jury rig the boom down and more to center I guess.

I have a 100% jib also that I could use but I've been lazy and just use the 130.

The boat is fine I'd just like to have a newer, faster one but keep holding back because of slip fees on two boats etc. And I'd hate to sell this one.

Maybe I'll actually do some work on it this winter rather than just sail it.
Not enough halyard tension for starters, and a cunningham would help a lot. But you know both of those being a racer. Certainly a vang would help as well, although the main does look fairly flat up top. But as pointed out you have too much canvas up. If it's blowing 25-30 on that boat you should be double reefed for sure.

Also, a 130% furled to the second reef mark is virtually worthless. All bagged out and overpowered if they are trimmed "properly" and luffing deafeningly to shreds if they are not. You should definitely find a blade for the boat if you're going to make a habit of going out in those conditions.

I know you're kind of perpetually boat shopping (who's not?) and there is no substitute for a deep keel when going to windward. Maybe an early C&C 41 (a nice example) is in your future. The 8' draft stands her up pretty good.
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Old 27-10-2014, 11:57   #32
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

Thanks for the input. I'm having the boat pulled next week so I'll take the sail in and have the reef points put in over the winter.

Some of that is habit. (having too much sail up) In small catamaran racing, there are no reef points on the sails. We just crank in tons of prebend, rake the mast way back, travel out, and over rotate or derotate the mast to break the wind flow. And flatten to sail to the max. Full strength on an 8 to 1 downhaul.
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Old 27-10-2014, 12:11   #33
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Not enough halyard tension for starters, and a cunningham would help a lot. But you know both of those being a racer. Certainly a vang would help as well, although the main does look fairly flat up top. But as pointed out you have too much canvas up. If it's blowing 25-30 on that boat you should be double reefed for sure.

Also, a 130% furled to the second reef mark is virtually worthless. All bagged out and overpowered if they are trimmed "properly" and luffing deafeningly to shreds if they are not. You should definitely find a blade for the boat if you're going to make a habit of going out in those conditions.

I know you're kind of perpetually boat shopping (who's not?) and there is no substitute for a deep keel when going to windward. Maybe an early C&C 41 (a nice example) is in your future. The 8' draft stands her up pretty good.
Thanks. I noticed how crappy and loose I had my settings (downhaul etc) after I saw the video. Btw, my gooseneck isn't fixed so I can raise the sail high enough whereby I can downhaul the crap out of the main. But without a real traveller and no cunningham I have to rig stuff.

I've been looking at an Ericson 35 with 6' +draft but I still like to head up towards home on the Eastern side of the bay from time to time. If I get caught up there and not near Onancock or Cape Charles and something comes in heavy there is no place to hide with a 6' draft as you probably know.

Of course, that Ericson has a PHRF of 123 so it shouldn't take that long to sail up there, and I could actually point with that boat and get home during the normal SW Winds and not have to jump aboard a heavy duty NW wind from a passing front.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984...s#.VE6NESLF9Fs

Riding a NW Wind about 50 miles from Onancock to Kiptopeke down the bay with the Bristol June 14th. Wind touched on 30mph a bit later. I'm sorta glad it didn't get much higher:

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Old 27-10-2014, 12:41   #34
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

Yes, too much sail up and the main is too baggy/full.

We never reefed the main (roller reefing sucks) in strong winds but could still make the boat "stand" fifty years ago:

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Old 27-10-2014, 12:48   #35
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

Well, you can blame how far over she was on my old Navico autopilot. I was busy filming! Plus the wind was cranking in there. You can't tell from the waves because the wind is southerly and I'm in protected waters pretty much.

I sure wish I had that old Navico back. I somehow lost it overboard during that 50 mile downwind ride above. I kept having to grab the tiller so the boat wouldn't go abeam to the waves.
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Old 27-10-2014, 20:12   #36
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

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I have a similar narrow beam of 8ft. I have three reefs in the main and hanked on jibs, so can vary sail area a lot. It really helps because my wife hates to spill her wine:-)
Kidding a side, i have a light drifter, genoa, #1, #2, and a storm jib plus an asymmetric and regular spinaker. So l use what wind dictates and try to keep the boat flat and wife happy.
If i remember right the Vega has that hard turn to the bilge we were talking about so while the beam may be about the same as the Bristol which has much slacker bilges you would have better initial form stability. For most people coastal cruising and daysailing more initial stability is preferable to sailing on your ear. While a cat solves the heeling problem some people don't like the motion upwind that goes along with the stability and beam of a solid bridgedeck cat. Net and tube cats like beachcats and flexible open deck cats don't have that snappy motion.

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Old 28-10-2014, 05:12   #37
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

One thing about the Bristol 27 though as many here already know is that once she is heeled over and dug in she will hold steady right there. Here is another bad video showing that.

I had just cleared this heavy wind line that was running along the shore and found a smooth patch. Then went below for some stuff. The sounds you here at first are of an old man climbing back on deck from below leeward side. As far as how the sails are set, I'm learning to be a cruiser and I don't race these days. The rags are in the air and the boat is moving forward! New autopilot has the con.

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Old 09-01-2015, 14:36   #38
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

Not an expert compared to others, but from the video looks like tightening down haul on main would flatten your main. Given mainsail trim, perhaps some advice on head sail would help. If you have roller furling, just furling to achieve 100% vs whatever size you have likely just made the heeling worse. Seek comments from the sail trim experts on this, it will help your heeling if not solve the problem completely.


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Old 09-01-2015, 14:56   #39
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

The thread drifted just a bit.

I pretty much know how to set my boat up for most any condition from racing for 15 years. Lots of that was as a singlehander (on a boat with a spinnaker) not some guy whose only job was rail meat or trimming a sail.

The question was which boat is the stiffest: (or we could go with which boat is maybe the best Coastal Cruiser)

Cal 31

Niagara 31

Morgan 323
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:47   #40
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Thanks. I'll play around with it some.

The sails are practically new, but the boat doesn't have a proper traveller. See picture. The goose neck isn't fixed though so I can downhaul it hard and I can also jury rig the boom down and more to center I guess.

I have a 100% jib also that I could use but I've been lazy and just use the 130.

The boat is fine I'd just like to have a newer, faster one but keep holding back because of slip fees on two boats etc. And I'd hate to sell this one.

Maybe I'll actually do some work on it this winter rather than just sail it.
You'll need at least one more reef point in the main. Mains seem to give the most heeling moment to a boat so you need to be able to downsize it to get the boat to stand up better. I like three reef points so the main can be reduced to near trisail dimensions for really strong winds.

Pin the boom at the black band by threading a bolt under the goose neck car. Have the sailmaker add a Cunningham cringle to the luff of the sail. Control luff tension with a light tackle using the cunningham.

Rig a four part tackle from the base of the mast to the boom to act as a vang. Keep the angle of the tackle at the boom to something less than 60 degrees. The less the angle the less compression load on the gooseneck and the more the down force controlling sail shape. That will give you better mainsail shape, flattening the main and reducing heeling moment to windward and projecting more sail area off the wind. The vang will take the place of a traveller as you won't need as much downforce from the sheet. Start looking for a real hard vang for your boat on Craig's List, Ebay, and Consignment Stores. A hard vang will do a much better job of maintaining sail shape than a tackle one and will support the boom when the main is flaked.

You've got roller furling on the headsail so no need to switch to a 100% unless you are expecting to sail for long distances/times in heavy winds. The reefed 130% will work just fine for most sensible sailing conditions.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:02   #41
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

Thanks. I'll read this in more detail tomorrow. I do plan on getting more reef points put in, and I do have a 100% jib that is almost new.

I wrapped some line around the mast to make a low point for the boom/gooseneck which works great (see attached). And I'm replacing the worn out/stretched lifelines with some line that was for the dingy lift before I removed it.

But my real coastal cruiser may be this boat: (if I can get the jackass broker to take $14,000 since the thing has no holding tank or dodger)

1980 CAL 31 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:09   #42
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

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I like the Morgan but was a bit worried about the short shoal draft keel at 4' as compared to the other two boats with 5' keels (but they are lighter in weight and more narrow)
Keel depth has less to do with stiffness and more to do with performance to windward, in general. There are lots of ways for boat designers to design more stiffness into a boat in compensation for shoal draft.

And that's a good point about relative degrees of stiffness. Valiants are initially tender, but stiffen up considerably once you pass 10 degrees and are like trees once you hit 15. Choose your poison, or rather, your application.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:19   #43
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Keel depth has less to do with stiffness and more to do with performance to windward, in general. There are lots of ways for boat designers to design more stiffness into a boat in compensation for shoal draft.

And that's a good point about relative degrees of stiffness. Valiants are initially tender, but stiffen up considerably once you pass 10 degrees and are like trees once you hit 15. Choose your poison, or rather, your application.
Ok. I actually do like the Morgan 323 but so does the owner with the price tag he put on it.

1983 Morgan 323 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:27   #44
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

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Ok. I actually do like the Morgan 323 but so does the owner with the price tag he put on it.

1983 Morgan 323 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Chesapeake deadrise workboats average 40' for a reason. the average wave length in the Bay is 20' (infamous Chesapeake Chop), and that length allows them to span three wave crests, again on average. They are long and svelte for a reason, with a very sharp entry that only flattens out far aft.

Your Bristol has one design element that translates into comfort on the Bay...a deep forefoot. Instead of slamming through the chop your cutting into it. Keep that in mind as you look at other boats and examine the shape of the hull forward of the keel.

20+ knots is a lot for 27' boat to ride in comfortably, particularly in Bay conditions. I'm reefed down by then on the Bay pretty regularly in my Valiant, which is a dry boat relatively speaking, and still get wet.

As for that Morgan, looks like a sweet ride. Hell, the new engine is half the value of the boat with only 140 hours.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:52   #45
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Re: Stiffest Boat?

I think you have already seen this but I was in a hurry to get back down the bay earlier this passed summer and me and the Bristol ended up in NW Winds that fluctuated between 24 and 30 mph for 4 hours. (I wouldn't have wanted to do it though going upwind)

The boat did fine but I had too much sail up and was too queasy to change the sail until I discovered some Dramamine I had but by then the winds were down and it was beer time as I was crossing the beginning of the channel to Cape Charles on the way to Kiptopeke which is very nice when the wind is Northerly:

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