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Old 05-05-2009, 09:06   #16
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Canoe stern. Major advantages: presents a narrower profile for following seas; aesthetically pleasing (IMO). Disadvantage: reduces storage space below.

http://www.thecruisingkeel.com/cruisers/37tayana.jpg
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:24   #17
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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
"..crappy at sea....."------the phrase is one should be saved for the likes of clipper marine , et alii-----if one likes to race and is sailing the old "performance cruiser" is one that folks used to race and twist-o-flex the hull into uncruisable distortions
actually, the Bob Perry-designed Valiant 40 is often considered the prototype of the performance cruiser and its offshore performance is legendary.

I used to fall hard on the traditional side of the traditional vs. modern debate, but the more I sail and the more I read, the more agnostic I am. I like my Tayana 37, which displaces 22,000 lbs. The biggest surprise is how well she does in light air. Nobody would guess it from looking at her. But, I also see the advantages of other hull forms. I recently helped sail an Ericson 38 up the Chesapeake and although it got kicked around in the 4-foot chop a lot more than my Tayana would gave, it made 6-7 knots with a half-furled genny in 25-28 knots of wind. Wow. It might well have been a more comfortable trip in my Tayana, but no doubt a longer one too.

I think a boat is about its use and about the owner's expectations, and not least of those is the owner's sense of aesthetics. It's a shame when I meet people who haven't fallen in love with their boat. That should be part of the experience, IMHO. As we know, looks aren't everything, but they sure do help.

I might add that I have other issues with some "modern" designs. Cavernous cockpits, no handholds below, poor interior build quality, inaccessible bilges, too much windage in some cases, etc.
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Old 05-05-2009, 18:13   #18
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I think a boat is about its use and about the owner's expectations, and not least of those is the owner's sense of aesthetics. It's a shame when I meet people who haven't fallen in love with their boat.
Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

My boat comes in both a reverse transom and a counter stern version. Both are handsome, I like the counter stern, so that's what I have. The large lazarette is nice for light, bulky items, like fenders.

The lovely Lyman-Morse Seguin 44's also came in reverse or counter sterns. I've seen both, and they're both really good looking.

Ultimately, what counts is that you love your boat. You're not buying it for other people, it's for you. Be realistic about the size you need, if you sail as a couple, you don't need 3 private staterooms. Too much boat, and you may find yourself using it less for lack of crew.

You have a good eye, the BI40 is a good looking, timeless boat. There are some more modern designs which share aesthetic elements - overhangs, springy sheer. If you love the way your boat looks, if you pause in the dinghy when rowing away just to gaze, you're likely to take great care of her, and be eager to get aboard for a sail. All other things being equal, it's easier to love a pretty boat.
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Old 05-05-2009, 20:56   #19
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Life is too short to dance with ugly women !

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Old 05-05-2009, 22:04   #20
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Life is too short to dance with ugly women !

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Old 06-05-2009, 09:44   #21
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I disagree with Zeehag.
A boat's tendancy to hobby horse or not is greatly effected by the shape of the hull.
Of course if you load the boat with all the weights in the ends you can exacerbate the tendancy of course. I think a boat's tendancy to hobby horse is a fucntion of how much rocker there is to the hull then add to this the way the boat is loaded.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:23   #22
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dear bob--you disagree with me yet you confirm what i said--the trim of the boat--where one places ones stuff and stores--is a factor---thankyou.....is exactly what i have said twice now thrice......i said nothing about th eshape of the hiull--but i have observed the load placement repair mopst of the hobby horsing in garden ketches and westsails,even babas, for example.....have a good day....
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:41   #23
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Zee: I read your posts and I do not think you are giving enough credit to hull shape in producing hobby horseing. Of course it can be aggravated with load placement in the ends but some boats, like the ones you mention have a hull shape that makes them very prone to hobby horseing regardless of load placement.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:00   #24
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I'm generally not one to gloat, but...

Quote:
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I disagree with Zeehag.
...I gotta tell ya how fun it is, after hearing Zeehag's opinion that I was wrong about a boat's tendency to hobby horse, to have none other than Robert Perry come along disagree with Zeehag on the matter.

Sorry I brought it up. Really.

Actually, the best reason for a sugar-scoop transom, in my opinion, is how easy it is to get back in the boat after a swim. That's probably what I really wanted to say in that first post.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:16   #25
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Bash: go ahead, gloat.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:58   #26
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go ahead and gloat---i am not a fan of sugar scoop transoms as i donot like the look of the new style of boat--they , in my mind arre bone ugly. bob perrys boats are gorgeous--not trying to flatter--stating fact---and gardens are gorgeous and so are wetsnails. i donot race--i cruise and i have a bowsprit. these factors are important in the ORIGINAL question asked and answered by all in many different ways.
the types of boat i like are slow and comfy cruisers. most of these hobby horse when loaded in a bow and stern heavy manner. the sugar scoop transoms are very easy for boarding--is why i donot like them--what is goood for the ease of re entry are also great for entry by uninvited guests. as thi9s is very very true, i have no interest nor liking of them. bob perry makes a nice canoe stern boat which, when loaded in a bow and stern heavy mode WILL hobby horse as much as an old garden ketch, such as mine.......there seems to be no correct answer but onl;y the answer of what cha likes use-----i prefer not to hobby horse as it can lead to piercing big waves by th esprit and pitchpoling as i was taught by my merchant marine tallshipman mentor in sailing.....to each his own--if y agets off pon bashing, have at it---i donot carry a mallet as big as that carried by BASH, but , then, i only reply to certain posts and prefer to spend my time sailing and refitting my sailboatS in preparation to cruising the ketch and selling the sloop. bashing others takes waaaaay tooo much time out of a day for engine repowering and refitting and repairing and restoring my ketch.....thankyou for the bash--none of us is WRONG all of us were correct----i am not a renowned yacht designer--i care only about the condition of my hull not th eshape of a racing sloop....have a goood day and keep th epirates out of your "sugar scoop" special--lemme guess--is a bendytoy, correct?? lol...have fun racing whille i cruise in comfort....you might get there first--but i donot care who or what cools off the beer i donot drink--i prefer not to pitch pole and i prefer no tto arrive at my destination beat to hellllllll.....goood day---i hopey aget the blood off yer mallet before your next bashing......lol.....
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Old 07-05-2009, 02:17   #27
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--none of us is WRONG all of us were correct

And I was "MOST CORRECT" out of all of us !!

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Old 07-05-2009, 04:06   #28
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I think that pros and cons have been discussed enough here and the only advice I have to give is this; No matter how fast your boat sails and no matter how well she will go to windward, you will never be happy with her unless 1: You feel comfortable with the interior design and 2: You like the exterior design. You will not be happy if, every time you look at the boat find yourself thinking "well, she sails fast but god what an ugly boat". I have always fallen on the classical side of the design line myself, but I do enjoy sailing modern boats, I even like looking at some of them I often get the question if a boat sails well and it's really impossible to answer. As stated before, it's all about it's intended use.

To Zeehag: Hey You know we just brought our Garden ketch home. I have to say that she hobby horsed a bit, but only when powering into chop through a narrow fairway. We had our bowsprit poke around in the water a couple of times. All hobby horsing was gone though, as soon as we set sail. You say that "A Gentleman never goes to windward", and I agree but I still find, and we did sail her to windward, that she did quite good, a lot better than expected and nowhere near as bad as I had thought from reading what has been posted on the net. She did well in stronger winds (force 6-7) and she did surprisingly well in light winds too. We are more than happy with how she performed, pleased with interior layout and thrilled with her looks!

Sorry for going off topic a bit at the end there...

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Old 07-05-2009, 04:30   #29
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I don't like the extremely wide stern boats. The ones I've sailed seem to require too much effort to keep on their feet and this seems to be the profile of todays modern cruiser. Bob says you can design a boat with a wide transom that will stayed balanced but it requires good design. I'll defer to Bob, hard not too, but I have yet to sail one of these boats.

Buy what you like: you're the one that will sail it, work on it, look at it, and pay for it.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:06   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hampus View Post

To Zeehag: Hey You know we just brought our Garden ketch home. I have to say that she hobby horsed a bit, but only when powering into chop through a narrow fairway. We had our bowsprit poke around in the water a couple of times. All hobby horsing was gone though, as soon as we set sail. You say that "A Gentleman never goes to windward", and I agree but I still find, and we did sail her to windward, that she did quite good, a lot better than expected and nowhere near as bad as I had thought from reading what has been posted on the net. She did well in stronger winds (force 6-7) and she did surprisingly well in light winds too. We are more than happy with how she performed, pleased with interior layout and thrilled with her looks!

Sorry for going off topic a bit at the end there...

/Hampus


wooohoooooooooooo!!!!! i havent sailed mine very far as yet--engine going in today !!!!!!! goood to hear my boat is as good as i figgered--have seen them sail but havent been th efortunate one to go very far yet--we hit canal this winter if alll goes well!!!!!

to the thread---do buy what you like--it can be re trimmed as needed!!!!

i cannot wait to sail my garden design thru canal and into caribean--is perfect water for her!!--her heavy displacement is just the thing for that chop!! and the anchorages will be smoooth even in rolly stuff...was there in a gozzard designed 36 and was choppy and rolly---didnt have the weight this does...
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