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Old 22-09-2012, 21:12   #31
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

When we lived aboard our poly - urethane finished round bilge STEEL sloop we were inevitably asked "WHAT IS HER CONSTRUCTION"?

I would reply "Paint Sandwich" ........
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Old 22-09-2012, 21:42   #32
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Mr B
In Australia the only time anyone cares about the steel boat you choose to build is if it is going to be in survey. Then if you are an accredited builder then no one inspects the build as you sign it out yourself.
If you are not accredited you need a surveyor with steel certification to sign it out as you go, it has nothing to do with a welding inspector UNLESS a question is asked re quality of the weld/welds.

The PO is asking what are the problems with a steel boat, to carry the welders you propose would be silly, i own a Fibreglass yacht, i don't carry cloth and resin around with me. But SIKA yes.

If the PO buys a steel boat that's in good nick he only has to keep up with the maintenence ie anodes, chips etc.

Cheers
I didnt say any thing about carrying my welders on board,
But I can on mine with no problems, along with a car and both my bikes,
I have a displacement of 117 tons, So I can carry any thing I want,

As you say no one on Australia cares about a steel boat, Mine was going to be inspected all the way though for insurances purposes only,

I do have the qualifications to sign it off myself, Welding and Inspection and approval,
My welding is recognized by LLoyds of London Shipping surveyors and has been for over 40 years,

Being a Practising Mechanical Engineer helps also,
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Old 22-09-2012, 22:59   #33
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Apologies i read your comment regarding running it up on the beach etc showing the welders and assumed you would weld the hypothetical hole, on the beach....

Brian if you are accredited to a society and your insurance for marine construction is current then that is all you need.

Any construction pictures of your boat? (The steel one)

Cheers
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Old 23-09-2012, 00:50   #34
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

This is my Steel 40 foot cat, 26 feet wide, 5 metres high from keel.
I havent continued with it because (1) I didnt have the money,
and I bought my Gemini because I want to go sailing now,

That Mig welder I bought just to weld it up, I have all the steel for it in my yard,
Too much welding to do with a stick welder,
Its my own design, And building and repairing shipping all my life, I have picked up a few pointers on it, Hahahaha

I am an Engineering Blacksmith By trade, Spent 5 years pushing a pen to get my Practising Engineers Qualification,
Engineering Blacksmith is the master Craft of all the Black Trades,
Am now a Boilermaker/DLI welder, Which is a very small part of my trade, As Blacksmithing and Heavy Engineering which I did, has now gone over seas.

It has a few things people just cant comprehend, Like the displacement line and the Planing line are the same line, Hahahahaha, But I dont care, It does work,

It is designed to sit on rocks, reefs, Etc with out damage or punching a hole in it,
It has a 3 inch steel exposed full length keel.
It has 8 watertite bulkheads, Which each one will keep the boat afloat on their own, So its virtually unsinkable,
3 foot wide deck all round,
6 ton of it is below the water line and sitting on the gravitational centre line of the vessel, Its a very stiff boat,
11 degree maximum list,
It will reright itself if it ever goes over, Takes a 5 metre wave or there abouts to drop it back on its keels,, Thats due to the weight distribution in it, Most is below the water line,

40 years of knowledge has gone into this baby, So all the crap bits have been built out, Or not included,

It has a hull speed of 54, with out props,I will make my own props, 28 inch Diam, and 700 HP Diesels pushing them, Economy is not an issue,

My first model went straight to the bottom of my pond, Hahahahahaaha, Wake up call,

It was a 4 foot lenght of RHS with end caps welded on, with a wall thickness of 7mm, Hahahaha no wonder it sank, When you calculate that back to 40 foot long, the wall thickness was some thing like 75 mm thick, Hahahaha
The weight of my model in the piccys was way over too, 1.2 mm thick, thats why it sits so low in the water, But that was all I had at the time, But it does sit level, and thats what I was after,
I can still add weight to the back or front to raise or lower the waterline,
10 tons sinks the boat about 6 inches from memory,

Spinnaker is 1200 Square feet, rectangular, Main and jib, about 1200 square feet also,
Am toying with two masts on it, one each side of the vessel, 25 feet apart,

So, Thats my Wharf with sails, Its a one off, designed for me, for what I wanted to do with it,

With life you have to get your prioritys right, So its the Gemini at the moment, and the Kimberlys next year on it,

The welder on the truck is what has earned my income for the last 25 years.

The little Invertor welder is all you need to carry for repairs, 170 Amps, so has plenty of grunt,
I bought it to do steam lines on a roof of a building as my leads off the truck weren't long enough to reach, It is also a TIG welder, Just need a small bottle of gas, good for stainless handrails,

Piccys are of the starboard Hull,
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Old 23-09-2012, 00:55   #35
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

A few comps to have a look at, On my 40 foot steel cat,
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Old 23-09-2012, 02:13   #36
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewEnglander View Post
I'm in Boston, and I've made trips up Maine, Nova Scotia, to Greenland and Iceland. I'd like to go back there at some point, the Caribbean, cross to Europe? I don't want to be unrealistically ambitious.

I was initially asking about peripheral things I may not be thinking of. Insurance, heating/cooling, etc.?
Hi latitude then steel starts to gain ground on other materials. Assuming it's foam sprayed inside the hull above the water line heating becomes easier. Condensation has never been a problem in mine over winter. Also not mentioned very often is do a little work and you can have a completely dry boat no matter what. Spiders in the bilges. And easy to weld on some massively strong attachment points for a drogue.
Plus the piece of mine if there's any ice about...

And why not be unrealistically ambitious?
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Old 23-09-2012, 02:21   #37
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
great post, thank you

Just curious, what two part paint are you using and can you use it in tiny batches for touchups?
I use ameron sealer first then high build, think it was 400. Looks like they've been bought out. _Protective Coatings | PPG Protective and Marine Coatings Australia | protective coatings - marine, automotive, and industrial
The sealer is great inside where perfect prep is often impossible.
Ameron is good as it's 1:1 mix, i use a set of digital kitchen scales to get the mix right, you can do small batches easy. Though might need to check the weights mixed as weight per volume can be a little different for the resin & cure.
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Old 23-09-2012, 03:32   #38
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Each construction material has it's advantages as well as disadvantages.

A steel boat from a good yard may last very long, is versatile and able to withstand harsh environments.
With the present technology, steel can be treated with super coatings like Ameron 400 for inside and outside and when applied a few layers finally finished with two or three layers of two components finishing.

The weight of steel is a disadvantage if you are looking for a racing type of ship. But the high kinetic energy can be very helpful to maintain speed and comfort at the same time if the hull has been well designed.

There are not that many designers who excel in steel but Van de Stadt is certainly one of them (not to forget the well known other Dutch designers) Bill Dixon and Dudley Dix
are similarly known for their sturdy work.

There is nothing that should keep you technically spoken from steel, personal preferences however will.
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Old 23-09-2012, 05:40   #39
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

On another note. One of the things to look out for amongst many, is the way the thru-hulls are constructed. See the thread Backing Block If there are Bronze or plastic ones you can expect problems. If the aperture is made along the lines in the thread above you will know that other things have been done correctly as well.

Also look for stainless steel bar welded to plate edges, look for sharp edges they are bad news. Look for chainplates that are integral to the hull = good. Bollards and bitts integral not bolted on.

just a few points...
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Old 23-09-2012, 06:41   #40
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewEnglander View Post
Does anyone want to bid higher?
The man hours associated with the maintenance will "in my opinion" vary greatly with how things have been done before.

My boat is just my little example, what can be done to over come problems with a material, and basically every material has its down side.

I have a steel boat that is now almost complete and its taken a while but thats becuase once shes in the water i dont intend to "have to" do stuff all to her for quite a while.

Like i said its all about how things were done first.

When i bought a steel boat i looked at all the other peoples ideas and criticisms of steel as a product and just found ways to over come them.

Examples, rust streaks everywhere? on my boat everything that is fixed to the deck or hull above or bellow waterline is marine grade stainless welded to the steel hull.

Any of the nice silky oak or teak bits actually float of the hull on packers made from plastic, not visible to the eye, or sit on stainless fittings.

Once i get time to do it i will put a rubber flooring system on the majority of the decks to protect from most impact damage from dropping stuff, something like tread master.

that then leaves only about 20-30% of the total deck that can actually get damage too.

The edge of the boat has a solid timber rail that once again floats just of the hull on stainless steel, so no damage to the hull there either.

The are no sharp edges on anything, paint doesn't like to stick to a sharp corner on any material and use good paint, yes it expensive but "APPLY IT PROPERLY" and its cheaper than cheap shitty paint in the long run.

So i got paint on everything, so no rust there.

Once again i got 2 pack everywhere, i must have 7 coats below the water line and at least 5 or six on the top

so in reality there aint much that is gonna rust, ahh but corrosion, well.

make sure you aint got nothing earthed to the hull, and no dissimilar metals, once again any aluminum etc, anchor winch, mast, rigging to mast etc (mount it on a plastic plate or use nylon sleeves and spacers so that it is all electrically disconnected to the boat.

I think the only way the salt water will electrically connect in my steel boat will be the raw water intake on the motor and there,s not much i can do about that.

make sure you got the right amount of anodes in the right locations and the right amount of surface area of anodes.

Hot or cold steel boats, mines got fire retardant insulating foam sprayed all over the inside above waterline and underneath that and over the top of it there is 2 pack paint. then its got another layer of closed cell foam with foil on both sides of it. So basically its it own little cosy environment in there.

Steel boats rust from the inside out, well duh, most people build things into position and most boat have so many areas that you would need a trained ferret to get into or a very long strong hand with eyes that can see in the dark and 20 extremely strong fingers on it.

Also most boats dont have proper ventilation, and most boats have leaks, hence the rusting from the inside out.

All the interior in my boat can be removed in sections off about 600mm wide so that you can get to and maintain each area, nothing sits on the inner hull, everything either floats on the insulation or floats of the inside of the hull (under the water line) on a raft system that i made so that air can circulate everywhere, oh and there's a little ventilation system that use computer fans to circulates air of its own little battery and solar system so all those hidden little areas stay nice and dry, therefore no rust.

Use the right steel too, a lot of homemade boats will use the cheapest steel you can get as there building it at home so there probably trying to save money, use A10 or a marine grade steel designed for a boats hull will also aid in the longevity of the hull and therefore reduce long term maintenance.

man every time that i snap a drill bit somewhere on my boat i smile and think that I'm proud of how hard my hull is and that when i get to the nice anchoring zone and some bugger is in my way how nicely my stainless bow roller / nudge bar will just slice through there little egg shell boat.

Yards wont let you into the space to let you do your own work on your boat.

Easy to solve too, i have an idea that i will make for my boat, its a set of legs that break down for stowage and setup in five minutes that will affix to the sides of my steel boat, so i can stand her anywhere i choose too.

Not bad for a mono hull that isn't a bilge keeler i reckon or just get a bilge keeler.

Stuff the yards, work where you want when you want, people will no doubt say you cant do that you wont make it work or you wont have enough power etc, for what a yard costs you to do that work there you can use that cash to make what you want to work on your boat anywhere anyway.

Air compressors, sand blasters can all be run off your inboard motor on pulleys, power you should be generating anyway other wise how will you keep your beer an steaks cool?

So anyway back to your question about the man hours to maintain, well I'm putting them in now so that i dont have to do them on the water, so who's in front, I'm guessing that i am.

Don't forget all boats have downsides, all materials have downsides too, you just gotta figure out how to turn the downsides upside down into smiles.

Hopefully something in here helps you

Matthew

p.s i still like ferro more than all the other materials, haha to all the ferro haters
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Old 23-09-2012, 07:02   #41
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by resilientg View Post
The man hours associated with the maintenance will "in my opinion" vary greatly with how things have been done before.

........everything that is fixed to the deck or hull above or bellow waterline is marine grade stainless welded to the steel hull.

Any of the nice silky oak or teak bits actually float of the hull on packers made from plastic, not visible to the eye, or sit on stainless fittings.
......
The edge of the boat has a solid timber rail that once again floats just of the hull on stainless steel, so no damage to the hull there either.

The are no sharp edges on anything, paint doesn't like to stick to a sharp corner on any material and use good paint, yes it expensive but "APPLY IT PROPERLY" and its cheaper than cheap shitty paint in the long run.
.....

make sure you aint got nothing earthed to the hull, and no dissimilar metals, once again any aluminum etc, anchor winch, mast, rigging to mast etc (mount it on a plastic plate or use nylon sleeves and spacers so that it is all electrically disconnected to the boat.
...
Hot or cold steel boats, mines got fire retardant insulating foam sprayed all over the inside above waterline and underneath that and over the top of it there is 2 pack paint. then its got another layer of closed cell foam with foil on both sides of it. So basically its it own little cosy environment in there.
......

All the interior in my boat can be removed in sections off about 600mm wide so that you can get to and maintain each area, nothing sits on the inner hull, everything either floats on the insulation or floats of the inside of the hull (under the water line) on a raft system that i made so that air can circulate everywhere, oh and there's a little ventilation system that use computer fans to circulates air of its own little battery and solar system so all those hidden little areas stay nice and dry, therefore no rust.......

Easy to solve too, i have an idea that i will make for my boat, its a set of legs that break down for stowage and setup in five minutes that will affix to the sides of my steel boat, so i can stand her anywhere i choose too.

I want one of those!!!
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Old 23-09-2012, 09:02   #42
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by resilientg View Post
The man hours associated with the maintenance will "in my opinion" vary greatly with how things have been done before.

My boat is just my little example, what can be done to over come problems with a material, and basically every material has its down side.

I have a steel boat that is now almost complete and its taken a while but thats becuase once shes in the water i dont intend to "have to" do stuff all to her for quite a while.

Like i said its all about how things were done first.

When i bought a steel boat i looked at all the other peoples ideas and criticisms of steel as a product and just found ways to over come them.

Examples, rust streaks everywhere? on my boat everything that is fixed to the deck or hull above or bellow waterline is marine grade stainless welded to the steel hull.

Any of the nice silky oak or teak bits actually float of the hull on packers made from plastic, not visible to the eye, or sit on stainless fittings.

Once i get time to do it i will put a rubber flooring system on the majority of the decks to protect from most impact damage from dropping stuff, something like tread master.

that then leaves only about 20-30% of the total deck that can actually get damage too.

The edge of the boat has a solid timber rail that once again floats just of the hull on stainless steel, so no damage to the hull there either.

The are no sharp edges on anything, paint doesn't like to stick to a sharp corner on any material and use good paint, yes it expensive but "APPLY IT PROPERLY" and its cheaper than cheap shitty paint in the long run.

So i got paint on everything, so no rust there.

Once again i got 2 pack everywhere, i must have 7 coats below the water line and at least 5 or six on the top

so in reality there aint much that is gonna rust, ahh but corrosion, well.

make sure you aint got nothing earthed to the hull, and no dissimilar metals, once again any aluminum etc, anchor winch, mast, rigging to mast etc (mount it on a plastic plate or use nylon sleeves and spacers so that it is all electrically disconnected to the boat.

I think the only way the salt water will electrically connect in my steel boat will be the raw water intake on the motor and there,s not much i can do about that.

make sure you got the right amount of anodes in the right locations and the right amount of surface area of anodes.

Hot or cold steel boats, mines got fire retardant insulating foam sprayed all over the inside above waterline and underneath that and over the top of it there is 2 pack paint. then its got another layer of closed cell foam with foil on both sides of it. So basically its it own little cosy environment in there.

Steel boats rust from the inside out, well duh, most people build things into position and most boat have so many areas that you would need a trained ferret to get into or a very long strong hand with eyes that can see in the dark and 20 extremely strong fingers on it.

Also most boats dont have proper ventilation, and most boats have leaks, hence the rusting from the inside out.

All the interior in my boat can be removed in sections off about 600mm wide so that you can get to and maintain each area, nothing sits on the inner hull, everything either floats on the insulation or floats of the inside of the hull (under the water line) on a raft system that i made so that air can circulate everywhere, oh and there's a little ventilation system that use computer fans to circulates air of its own little battery and solar system so all those hidden little areas stay nice and dry, therefore no rust.

Use the right steel too, a lot of homemade boats will use the cheapest steel you can get as there building it at home so there probably trying to save money, use A10 or a marine grade steel designed for a boats hull will also aid in the longevity of the hull and therefore reduce long term maintenance.

man every time that i snap a drill bit somewhere on my boat i smile and think that I'm proud of how hard my hull is and that when i get to the nice anchoring zone and some bugger is in my way how nicely my stainless bow roller / nudge bar will just slice through there little egg shell boat.

Yards wont let you into the space to let you do your own work on your boat.

Easy to solve too, i have an idea that i will make for my boat, its a set of legs that break down for stowage and setup in five minutes that will affix to the sides of my steel boat, so i can stand her anywhere i choose too.

Not bad for a mono hull that isn't a bilge keeler i reckon or just get a bilge keeler.

Stuff the yards, work where you want when you want, people will no doubt say you cant do that you wont make it work or you wont have enough power etc, for what a yard costs you to do that work there you can use that cash to make what you want to work on your boat anywhere anyway.

Air compressors, sand blasters can all be run off your inboard motor on pulleys, power you should be generating anyway other wise how will you keep your beer an steaks cool?

So anyway back to your question about the man hours to maintain, well I'm putting them in now so that i dont have to do them on the water, so who's in front, I'm guessing that i am.

Don't forget all boats have downsides, all materials have downsides too, you just gotta figure out how to turn the downsides upside down into smiles.

Hopefully something in here helps you

Matthew

p.s i still like ferro more than all the other materials, haha to all the ferro haters
Just a word of warning there, Mathew, That fire retardant your using, Break off a bit and set a light to it,
Company I was working for paid big heaps for a non flammable spray on foam, Just like yours,
I was welding up in the roof of this building, Got down and was just about to walk down the stairs, out of habit, I turned around just to check where I was working and the whole bloody roof was alight,

I quickly put it out and then went down and told the Foreman that his fire proof foam went up like Bonfire night, He was shocked, and then told me how much extra they had paid for the non flammable stuff they had used up there,

If it burns in your hand it aint fire retardant, But make sure you check it out,

Your boat sounds great mate, Good one,
Cheers,
Brian,
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Old 24-09-2012, 23:05   #43
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Had a beautiful 48 foot Ted Brewer steel Cutter. Spent six years cruising the west coast of Mexico, panama and the bahamas.
Will never own another steel boat...Like the man said they rust...and rust never sleeps

my 2 cents worth
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Old 24-09-2012, 23:27   #44
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

I just wonder how the perfect boat of resilientg will be after it actually hits salt water? The dream(plans) and the reality are often differant. I really like steel boats, but having owned one I dont believe for a second that they are as easy to maintain as a plastic boat.____Grant.
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Old 25-09-2012, 02:41   #45
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Re: Steer me away from a steel hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
I just wonder how the perfect boat of resilientg will be after it actually hits salt water? The dream(plans) and the reality are often differant. I really like steel boats, but having owned one I dont believe for a second that they are as easy to maintain as a plastic boat.____Grant.
Just for your info matey, my boats over 40 years old, has been sitting in the open in blasting sun, hot and humid environment, and all the acid rain you can handle, yes it has never been in the soup.

But in saying that, its got no rust! period and in my reckoning she has passed the test of time already. (like i said, pick the right steel)

It did have two spots when i bought her both were about 25 mm in diameter One was were a wooden block had been against her for many years and the other was in the cockpit where she was sitting level and water and scank accumulated for ever.

Apart from that, shes cool.

Under the foam that i have removed nothing, good as gold.

In the ballast that i jack hammered out, still no rust

I will also like to see how she fairs when she hits the water.

maybe the steel boat you had before was just a shitty example?

Matthew
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